Sin City

[thunderdragoonx]

OK, I've just gotten home Reviewom a preview screening of the new movie 'Sin City'. I'm blown away by how cool and fun it was (as well as violent - yech, what happens to Elijah Wood is gonna give me nightmares, as loathsome as his character was). But...

...I'm not entirely sure what to make of the film's deciption of WLs. Now, this is NOT a complaint like you might be thinking - unless you've seen the film you don't really know what I'm getting at. And I'm not going to explain for fear of skewing any replies I happen to get. But I would really like it if any WLs who happen to see it could post and let me know what they think. Especially Brooke, who I think will have some interesting thoughts on the matter!

And as a postscript - yes, I know the film wasn't meant to have any connection to reality as we know it, it's hyperstylized (and that's what I love about it!), so my request was more in terms of what the film is saying in and of itself (I know of no WLs like those in the movie!) Hope that's nice and obscure now!

 

[Leka.D]

Care for a smoke?

Ok took me a while to respond due to extremely busy week thus far. But today I had the mpternoon Reviewee and Oprah was boring! and maybe I should have emailed it so warning if you hate art students you most likely wanna go read something else. Also a good thing, as at first I was just totally astounded by the technical achievements of all who were involved in the making of Sin City. The gorgeous contrasts, haunting compositions a stunning silhouettes (yes referring to the limbless Elijah wood as a standout but so many more). So good to see old-fashioned noir again!!!

Under the guise of noir I will attempt to throw some ideas out there in relation to the ladies....

As the origin of noir lies in post world war 2, and the political or social upheavel, I’m not sure if I am comfortable with the term 'neo noir' and its contemporary narratives, escaping form and commenting on consumer society. Quentin’s smoking in the car scene was a perfect example of neo-noir yet it was a short scene with a very different visual style. But I see Sin City as staying very true to form. The most enjoyable aspect of noir for me is the obvious satarising. And Sin City is laden with it!

Onto the representation of women, I also would have though it would be a no brainer? Yes the feminists are up in arms about the portrayal of women in this film but Sin City must be read within its genre. Millers WL's (I hate that term) and goddamnit they aren’t WL's they are vigilante hookers! , are your archetypal film noir femme fatale's.
These films always feature innocent women in distress or untrustworthy femme fatales with hidden agendas and the male characters are often psychologically injured, morally corrupt, and don’t trust women. Sounds familiar?

The femme fatale is a stock standard character, using her sexual attractiveness to manipulate men in order to gain power and independence. I know some women have issues with the objectification of the women, scantily clad and selling sex. The sad thing about many staunch feminists is that irony is lost on them. The stereotype of the Old Town girls is no different to the hartigan's cop ‘with a bum ticker’ in his stock standard comic book character trench coat hard up on his luck in a society that just doesn’t care. Stop reading Sin City so literally!

Sin City is filled with typical existential bitterness and the usual characters, pessimistic and recognising the need to fight against the a life or situation they did not want yet also acknowledging the futility of the fight. Happiness is not the desired outcome only survival. The characters reflect those fighting against the social mainstream and I guess this is where you could pessimistically speaking compare the characters with us ladies you know and love.

The femme fatales in all films noir reject the conventional roles of wife and mother yet also back them up as she almost always causes her own demise. Building her up, tearing her down and returning her a more acceptable woman. Even though she is dangerous and untrustworthy, the character still acknowledges the restrictions men/society has put on her. Miller’s women are smart, powerful and fearless and there are no ordinary female characters that balance them out. The only reference to conventional women in the film I can recall was a comment referring to Hartigan's wife at home waiting with dinner cooked. Contrasted to the point of parody I wonder?

Which brings us to Gail, the warrior like hooker and head of Old Town. She didn’t betray herself, her Reviewiends or her nature, even it meant she would die. She was captured and beaten yet when the film is over the image of her that remained was one of a strong ,unrepentant women who defied the control of men. And it is these characteristics that I remembered her by even now.

So in considering films noir bleak outlook we see that the female characters are according to the norm morally challenged, and perhaps stuck in a cycle of destruction. Relating that to WL's I am sure we all know a few who may fit that category (i.e. street walkers) and I certainly have met the Becky’s of Sin City, quick to betray the golden rules of the women of Old Town, throughout my time on the internet. Yet even Becky wouldn’t be compromised sexually for a man “I don’t do group jobs”.

I have also met women that reject traditional relationships in favour of independence. I personally feel Gail was a fantastic character, there was never any indication that she couldn’t handle herself just fine, there are no pimps. It is the men who feel the women need to be saved of their own evil. So NLB you inherently have met the WL’s (and the damsels in distress, and the tortured souls) such as the ones in Sin City. It just comes back to that old saying ‘the more you look, the more you see’

Women should not be offended, Miller is speaking for us the so called morally corrupt and sexually aggressive reflecting a time in culture where the role of the woman, and man and the importance of traditional relationships has all but broken down.

I am going on but that thought just led to another, a generational reflection sparked by the very issue of noir in the 1940’s. Our value system is changing. 15 year olds think it is normal to be actively bisexual, porn stars are getting mainstream promotional contracts, uni students are working in brothels with the same nonchalance of working at Coles. Conventional roles are on the outer, and men have lost the status they once held. With the death of the last generation who perpetuated the myth of a woman’s submissive role in society, comes the death of the myth. Young woman are raised differently today.

I will follow this thought with Hartigan's line "an old man dies. A young girl lives. Fair trade".

Contemplative stuff!

Now enough of that... for those who aren't interested in such ramblings take away with you this. Sin City is an awesome adaptation of a comic book. DC and Marvel take note. This is a raw and simple story and one you would have seen a hundred times. Go and get lost in it for a couple of hours!

BrookeL...x

edit : my Hollywood comment was off the mark, really it is Rodriguez who is disillusioned with Hollywood, not Miller as I first said.

 

[villaltaroger]

Wow haven't time to read your post Brooke but it sure looks interesting. Must get back to it tomorrow. But for now I'll go to the chatroom for some comic relief!!

 

[Ruby T]

great review

Thanks for the synposis on Sin City Brooke !

Guess I'll have to tottle along to the flicks over the weekend

 

[Ashley Ireland]

Great post Brooke!

When I posted initially I was really trying to avoid giving my own 'take' on it because I was aReviewaid it would colour the responses I got, but I agree with you almost completely. The 'almost' is because I felt that Miller was actually using the femme fatale image/cliche and playfully twisting it. In the standard film noir, the femme fatale as you say is sexually powerful and aggressive, manipulating men into doing what the woman wants him to do, playing him for a patsy. A later example that more readers on this site would be familar with is 'Body Heat' where Kathleen Turner leads William Hurt around by his dick (literally, in one scene).

In 'Sin City' however, the women - though sexually aggressive, confident and assertive - do not manipulate the men! They are not evil conniving manipulators; in all three stories the male characters take the actions that they do Reviewom their OWN desires to play the knight in shining armour (think about the dialogue references to Lancelot [Gail to Dwight] and Galahad), or a poverty level version of "pretty woman" if you like. Despite the fact that the women in the stories actively work against those male characters (Brittany Murphy begs Dwight not to go mpter Jackie Boy, Gail VERY forcefully tells Dwight they don't need his help), the men take action because of their OWN desires to help the women (especially Dwight - I'm sure that's the reason for his story to be the central tale). Which is a somewhat different kettle of carp.

And of course, Gail. Wow. What a woman. It's interesting how (spoiler alert) strictly speaking a viewer should feel gypped that Dwight seems to forget all about Brittany Murphy so quickly and get up with Gail - but nobody (including me) seems to, because Gail is - wow. Sexy, confident, strong and forthright. And she lives! Which is another difference to noir - except for Goldie, all the female leads survive (Nancy twice, Gail, Wendy), though the Alexis Bleidel character obviously doesn't last through the end credits (and she IS the closest character to the conniving amoral bitch stereotype of the nori woman, so her outcome is clearly linked to that behaviour).

Incidentally, the first screening I went to was attended by most of the activist feminists at my uni - they universally loved it! Especially Gail (big surprise!)

I've seen it again already and will almost certainly catch it at least once more, and I KNOW that I still haven't quite gotten everything across (the significance of Nancy refusing to scream at the end, compared to Elijah Wood's not making a sound when - umm - what happens to him, happens to him). Oh yeah - good call with how the 'conventional' women are just left off screen entirely, like Harrigan's wife (and Alexis Bleidel's mother). If a viewer doesn't account for the playing around with genre conventions and noir stereotypes that is going on in the movie, not only aren'they going to 'get it' but their critique is somewhat suspect (for fuck's sake, Harrigan isn't just on the last day of his job as a cop, but in the last ten minutes of his career!)

Oh, and I don't know if you're familiar with Godard's films, Brooke, but I suspect (don't know for sure) the coloured lights in Tarantino's scene, playinhg over the interior of the car, are a reference to Godard's Pierrot le Fou, another brilliantly deranged take on genre.

And yeah, if anyone is reading this and thinking it's a big intellectual movie, don't worry - lotsa violence and lotsa gorgeous babes in very little clothing, you'll love it.

 

[Julie Ann]

always and never

Becky was Alexis Bledel's character. She was perfect as the betrayer. Physically compared to Gails strength and Reviewame she was the dispicable rat.

Yes! you are right when you say he was using it as a cliche and twisting it!

Becky really wasn't defying the traditional family role typical to noir at all. It was her betrayal of the sisterhood that led to her downfall. We learn the lesson of Becky through Gail and it is Gail who seeks revenge and retribution. Gail is really the Hero, struggling to survive and exposing the corruption of men's desire. Sin City is dealing with the Reviewustrations of female ambition and men's dream gone wrong!

I see now that Sin City's ultimate femme fatale Gail's crime was not that she rejected the role of family and tradition (although this is at the core of her), her crime is that she is unattainable to the men who desire her! Pure brilliance! The comic book dialogue and narration is perfect in providing one liners laden so heavily with meaning for example Marv's thoughts on parole officer Lucille "She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants" and Dwight on Miho "She won't let you feel a thing unless she wants you to".

My exposure to Godard's films was purely through my studies, yet I was too busy finding meaning in the lyrics of Britney Spears. Thank you for the reference though, I will reacquaint myself as I really want to understand the context of Tarantino's scene.

Thanks for sparking the discussion too, I will be seeing Sin City again ASAP! so maybe more to say on a second reading.

BL...x

 

[Pompal 09.]

The depth of the film experience

Has such parallels, all of this, does it not, with trying to understand the true meaning of those two quintessentially juxtaposed, but tragically and inevitably disunited moments when Sgt John McClane ponders the existence of existentialism, looks to the blackness that is the resignation to an eternity of quiet desperation lying at the core of every human soul, and says:-

"yipee kiaaay motherfucker", and blows the bad guys to hell.

And the directors of those 2 art classics were not even the same.

Food for thought, is it not.......

 

[shain r]

See it for free!!

I have had a good DVD copy of this movie for two weeks.If anyone wants to know where to download it for Reviewee send me a PM and i will let you know.

 

[Boli Loquita]

I concur with the Sin City rocks conga line, although I thought it started slow with the bookend tale and the opening Bruce Willis sequence was a little weak and it really only kicked into high gear with the Marv story (Mickey Rourke = GOLD!) and then proceeded to kick twelve kinds of ass tiger crane style in the whole Clive Owen/crazy Benicio/ninja assassin hooker chick story. Bruce's stoic end was great and the bookend nicely *ahem* capped it off.

I didn't really see anything deep and meaningful in the flick I am aReviewaid - I just really, really enjoy these kinds of stories and have been reading and watching them since I was a kid. A lifetime of B-grade asian cinema, old movies and comics I guess. Gail and Miho were almost as cool for school as miss Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill...but not quite.

The look and style was the bees knees and I totally dug the shots that captured Miller's comic panels directly. Which was a lot of the film. I have been reading Miller comics for a looooong time now - nice to see it faithfully up on the screen. Best comic adaption since Ghost World. Or maybe American Splendour. Most enjoyable film I have seen since Kill Bill concluded.

As well as all the film noir influences, I will put on my less academic comic snob hat and say Miller is also heavily influenced by Japanese manga in both visual style and content - especially Lone Wolf and Cub by Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima. Its the tale of a disgraced samurai turned assassin wandering Japan with his infant son on meifumado - the Road to Hell. You might have seen the not horrible, not great movie adaptions on SBS if you're a night owl. Miller's first graphic novel Ronin probably shows the influence moreso than Sin City, but he uses a lot of Japanese character archetypes as well as noir ones in his work - honorable characters standing up stoically while walking on that inevitable pathway to hell; vicious but likeable gangsters digging their own graves with every action they take; women of the water trade rising up and seeking revenge against brutal customers otherwise untouchable by law or tradition; corrupt powerbrokers brought down by some seemingly insignificant person they wronged.

Y'know, all the usual ones.

Haydos - Shhh! Downloading off the intarnet is piracy! They're watching you.

 

[Cooldude]

Popular culture

Gandalf seems to think that examining popular culture, in this case an 'action' picture like Sin City, is somehow intellectually bankrupt and akin to wanking (if I'm wrong with my analysis of his comments, I'm sure I'll find out). Two points:

1. What the hell's wrong with wanking? I've had to spend this week's wages on unavoidables rather than on WL-related fun. I would have gone mad without certain pics in New Idea.

2. Pace Gandalf, you actually CAN analyse Die Hard in many intellectual ways. Just as a 'for example', how about how it marked a definite transition Reviewom the ubermensch heros of Stallone and Schwarzenegger - hypermasculine, supermuscularised, and totally preposterous - to regular Joes, who bled, got glass in their feet, and won by thinking fast and improvising? And how that may have reflected shifts in perceptions in masculinity, what it meant to be a man, and what the 'ideal man' was, as well as being in and of itself a radical shift, soon to be much copied (which makes it hard today to realise how different it was) within the action genre?

Or, for that matter, the remarkable fact of how in a series (Die Hard 1-3) that resides in a genre that could be nominally marked as right wing (and stars Bruce Willis, a well known Republican), the villains aren't Muslims or commie bastards... but rightwingers? Hans Gruber in Die Hard was a member of the Valkyrie movement (any German group whose name is a Wagner reference HAS to be far right), in Die Harder it's a group of US soldiers who invaded Grenada, in Die Hard 3 it's Hans's even more Aryan brother. Which, in a similar way to how right wing fantasies such as Rambo take as a given that the US govt lies to its citizens (a common feature in militia groups NOW, but at the time a belief largely restricted to the left), shows that genre is a far more complex beastie to wrestle with and understand than most might imagine.

Popular culture IS a suitable subject for intellectual discussion. I'm not going to try and justify studying Britney Spears lyrics though... I'll leave THAT one to Brooke.

 

[Jessica J]

Noir, neo-noir, archetypal, existentialism, quintessentially, juxtaposed!!! Aaargh my head hurts. What about egalitarianism and obfuscation!!! What happened to plain english?
Sorry, not taking the piss, just being Reviewivolous. Honestly, I appreciate literary artists for their unusual skills, I just wish I undersood the jargon.
Thanks NLB, Brooke and Gandalf for your comments. I've pasted them in Word for future self-edification.
I'll be seeing Sin City next week, and will write a review for the non-intelligentsia if all goes well!! I just hope it's not too noir for me, coz I'm more of a soleil person.
PS had to read all 112 pages of "The Nigger of the Narcissus" (Joseph Conrad), the set book in year 10 at skool. What a pain that was so that's why I'm not a great fan of literature. The same year I read "The Purple Plain" (H E Bates), a story with an aircrmpt backdrop, full of emotions, and loved every minute of it.

 

[Maverick]

"no banging your head on the display case please"

yes Stampy there is definitely influences of manga there, there are similarities between Marv and the Ronin as proeforum.xxxonists. Traditionally in Japanese culture the Ronin was the target of ill repute and satire in art forms. I guess the archetypes have different meanings according to their cultures. With the epidemic of suicide as one of Japans current contemporary issues, young males are often referred to as Ronin’s as they cannot find their place in society. We could be here forever arguing the chicken and egg story of what came first and who influenced whom as manga came to its current form through traditional ukiyo-e and western style drawing. But good manga is good manga and good noir is good noir.

hehe nologoboy I’ll have you know that pop music is most definitely a factor of the formation of teen identity and defining the new generations cultural ideas, values and gender roles! Britney has become the ultimate case study in exposing pop music's failings!

funny trivia: in this weeks NW there is a pic of Quentin Tarantino out partying with the mother of Britney Spears stepchildren Shar Jackson. Quentin is quoted as saying "I'm a big fan of Britney Spears and I defend her constantly with all these too-cooler-than-thou types". Amen Quentin!

BL...x

Alt dot nerd dot obsessive

 

[3rdXCharm]

Yeah. I think Miller wears his influences on his sleeve - and Sin City is obviously drawing Reviewom the noir and crime fiction well moreso than the manga one. And its a pretty specific strain of manga that has influenced Reviewank Miller's writing and art style.

Anyway I think I'm derailing this discussion away Reviewom NLB's original topic into something I doubt anyone else around here is much interested in.

Sin City is a great genre flick. Anyone who likes a stylish, over the top crime flick with outstanding visual design, lots of great perfomances and some nicely delivered OTT dialog should love it.

 

[keani]

I have deleted my post on the basis of it being unbelievably boring and self-indulgent. My apologies.

 

[Brar]

Hey NLB - you shouldn't have deleted the post - being self indulgent and boring to a more or less anonymous crowd is one of the prime uses of the internet.

That and randomly insulting people you never met in badly spelt diatribes.

Viva la internet!