Subcontracting work

[Elliott N]

Periodically, I have a need to subcontract work in my practice. I try to be generous as far as compensation while keeping some profit for myself. I offer an hourly rate that is much higher than what Massage Envy or various local day spas pay but I frequently get resistance from the MTs to whom I'm offering this work because I am paying them less than what I am billing the client (I don't make a point to tell them what I charge, but my rates are posted on my website) even though in some cases I am offering to pay them the same rate (or even a few dollars more per hour) they are charging in their own practices. (And these are MTs who are not generally fully booked.)

Anyway, is this just my perception or do we really expect other MTs to pay us much more than we would accept from non-MT owned businesses?

If you're willing to reply in this thread, I would also appreciate if you would also state what your current hourly rate is (if you're in private practice) and what you would be willing to accept as a rate for subcontracted work, if you are open to taking on subcontracted work.

I'm just trying to get an idea of what everyone thinks because this is becoming an issue for me. Thanks!

 

[Only by the grace of God]

Subcontracting work

I offer an hourly rate that is much higher than what Massage Envy or various local day spas pay but I frequently get resistance from the MTs to whom I'm offering this work because I am paying them less than what I am billing the client (I don't make a point to tell them what I charge, but my rates are posted on my website)

Even if they can look it up, it is immaterial to the discussion and the decision. This is a variation on the ridiculous "fair pay" mindset that clouds too many addled brains. It does not matter how much you (as the business owner) get paid by the client, when you get paid by the client or even IF you get paid by the client. The pay for the service is what the pay for the service is -- either that is worth the ICs time and effort or it isn't. Nothing else matters in making the decision to work for you or not. Everything else is emotion, not decisioin making

even though in some cases I am offering to pay them the same rate (or even a few dollars more per hour) they are charging in their own practices. (And these are MTs who are not generally fully booked.)

Mind-boggling, isn't it?!?!? We have had many MTs over the year reject working for us because our pay as a % of the service price was "unfair" or "too low" even though the $$ per service were the highest they would ever see. You can't reason with irrationality, so move on to someone else who can do math.

A massage practice is similar to an airline or a hotel. Once the time slot passes unfilled, it is lost forever. All businesses that operate on this model -- and its not a choice, all MTs do -- need to understand the benefit of marginal revenue to their bottom lines.

Sure, having your own clients pays best, but when you don't have them you are well advised to generate whatever revenue you can in a smart way.

 

[geomark]

Subcontracting work

Periodically, I have a need to subcontract work in my practice. I try to be generous as far as compensation while keeping some profit for myself. I offer an hourly rate that is much higher than what Massage Envy or various local day spas pay but I frequently get resistance from the MTs to whom I'm offering this work because I am paying them less than what I am billing the client...



Anyway, is this just my perception or do we really expect other MTs to pay us much more than we would accept from non-MT owned businesses?

Hi. I'll do my best to throw in a few thoughts.

As a therapist who has a fairly busy practice, which can occasionally be "gappy" or slow at some points, I have been know to carve out some time to practice-sit for another therapist when she was out of town. In that case I was paid by the clients for the amount of a regular session at her office. Therefore, her practice visit cost is $60/hour and I was paid $60/hour session, unless the client was already set up under a fee discount plan, and then I accepted that as the pay. My personal practice fee is $75/hour. So, I lost some money on the hourly fee, but gained a little extra money over the course of the 4 weeks I worked for her as I had scheduled it around my private practice. I blogged about the experience at: It Seemed Like A Good Idea At the Time.

I have another colleague who has a similar practice to mine. Her complaint of other therapists is that they don't provide her clients with the quality of care she or the clients expect. For about 8 months we've been dancing a dance about practicing together or trying to work something out that would be useful for her concept of her practice.

Facts be facts, we're only about 20 mins. with traffic away from each other, and probably only about 11 miles. You'd think it would be simple for her to move to my practice location or me to move to hers, but our clients come from totally different directions around town. And, someone who drives 45 mins. to my office would have to drive 1 hour and 10 mins. to hers. Her clients all live "inside the loop" which means they won't usually even drive five minutes outside of that traffic loop to where my office is. Long story short, we're close and yet so far from each other on all sorts of planes. (This is just to give you a little background.)

She wants someone to contract with her when she is out of town on three week stints throughout the year and to pick up her overflow as needed.

As much as I would love to help her when she is out of town (she has a wonderful clientele who I know I would enjoy working with), I had told her that it is a better idea if those clients will just come to my office and pay my fee. Note, I will send them back to her. This plan of action was all fairly routine for me, as I have done this for years with other therapists.

As a matter of fact, I also provide my clients with names of other therapists in case they can't see me due to a full schedule. Rarely will they go see someone else, but occasionally they will need that option, and I would rather send them to someone I know is good , than to have them hope they find someone competent.

But, for her, this concept has been somewhat stressful. Her argument is, she wants to keep some income on each of those clients (so, even if she can't fit them in, she doesn't want to refer them to another person) and she is also worried about loosing clients to another therapist. She even asked, if I saw a client of hers in my office, if I would be willing to provide her something back for the referral. I just simply told her I don't work that way. I can absolutely understand her wishes and why she has them... but, all of her ideas were a bad fit for me, since I then loose valuable time to be available for my own clients and their needs.

I would be very interested in practicing with her, but I can't seem to find a way to make it work at this time.

In the end, she has started to relunctantly and judiciously refer a few clients to me when she goes out of town and has tested the waters with her clients she knows won't switch therapists. So, far everything has gone well, and I believe I am gaining her trust, that I don't want to try and "steal" or lure her clients to my practice.

I think as private practice therapists, even when we have a light schedule, we all have so many other business things we can or need to be doing, that unless an offer is fairly lucrative, it can make it hard to do contract work for another therapist.

Now a therapist who only works contract may be able to do that quite easily and be excited about the opportunity.

But, when a private therapist is out of the office, they loose valuable opportunities to build their practice, unless they schedule things properly. Unfortunately, sometimes there is a thin line between needing to be in the office and needing to do contract work. So, that may be what you are running into.

My thought, is that you may just want to see if you can find a therapist who would work with you, like I do with other therapists. It's a thought.

 

[nicky c]

Subcontracting work

So, I lost some money on the hourly fee, but gained a little extra money over the course of the 4 weeks I worked for her as I had scheduled it around my private practice.

Let's be clear. You did NOT LOSE A DIME. Losing money means having less in your pocket at the end of the day than when you started. What you did was make money. You made less than you would have working for yourself, but if you could have worked for yourself (you were clear to point out you scheduled this AROUND your own practice) you would have. You MADE money. This is exactly the mindset that can get in the way of success. If you perceive that making money is losing money, you aren't making decisions based on facts.

Her argument is, she wants to keep some income on each of those clients (so, even if she can't fit them in, she doesn't want to refer them to another person) and she is also worried about loosing clients to another therapist. She even asked, if I saw a client of hers in my office, if I would be willing to provide her something back for the referral.

Why shouldn't she get something? She made the expenditure in the location and advertising to obtain the clients and has served them well in creating loyalty and referrals.

I just simply told her I don't work that way. I can absolutely understand her wishes and why she has them... but, all of her ideas were a bad fit for me, since I then loose valuable time to be available for my own clients and their needs.

If you have enough clients of your own, you should NEVER work for anyone else. You don't need the money. If you do need the money, working for someone else -- or even having someone else obtain the clients -- does have a value and you should recognize this.

A second or PT job ALWAYS pays less than your FT job. If it didn't, then it WOULD BE your FT job. Why go through the hassle, expense and risk of starting a practice when you can just sub for one of 20 MTs in town who are always in need of a day off and you can collect 100% of their fees and use their space and stuff?

 

[Dr Know-It-All]

Subcontracting work

So, I lost some money on the hourly fee, but gained a little extra money over the course of the 4 weeks I worked for her as I had scheduled it around my private practice.

Let's be clear. You did NOT LOSE A DIME. Losing money means having less in your pocket at the end of the day than when you started. What you did was make money. You made less than you would have working for yourself, but if you could have worked for yourself (you were clear to point out you scheduled this AROUND your own practice) you would have. You MADE money. This is exactly the mindset that can get in the way of success. If you perceive that making money is losing money, you aren't making decisions based on facts.

Yes... let's be clear. I said I lost a little money on my hourly fee. I did loose money on what would be my hourly fee in my private practice. I am not griping about it, so ditch the tone. I specifically said I "gained a little money" over the course of 4 weeks. Also, let's be clear that you are trying to start something fo no reason. :irked:

Her argument is, she wants to keep some income on each of those clients (so, even if she can't fit them in, she doesn't want to refer them to another person) and she is also worried about loosing clients to another therapist. She even asked, if I saw a client of hers in my office, if I would be willing to provide her something back for the referral.

Why shouldn't she get something? She made the expenditure in the location and advertising to obtain the clients and has served them well in creating loyalty and referrals.

I never said she shouldn't. Again... you are trying to start something where there is nothing to start. Just because I mentioned her "argument", doesn't mean I am saying it is a bad reasoning if it is taking place in her office. I did however state "I can't find a way to make it work at this time" & that her "ideas were a bad fit for me".

Also, if a client is being referred to my office for whatever reason, I am not one to provide a kick-back when that client comes to my private practice.

Please re-read the complete thought, and then if you can't understand it better, I'll be happy to try and break it down better, as long as I feel like you are not just aiming to try to be a jack-a*s.

Re-post, so you don't have to go searching: ---->

• "She wants someone to contract with her when she is out of town on three week stints throughout the year and to pick up her overflow as needed.
  
  As much as I would love to help her when she is out of town (she has a wonderful clientele who I know I would enjoy working with), I had told her that it is a better idea if those clients will just come to my office and pay my fee. Note, I will send them back to her. This plan of action was all fairly routine for me, as I have done this for years with other therapists.
  
  As a matter of fact, I also provide my clients with names of other therapists in case they can't see me due to a full schedule. Rarely will they go see someone else, but occasionally they will need that option, and I would rather send them to someone I know is good , than to have them hope they find someone competent.
  
  But, for her, this concept has been somewhat stressful. Her argument is, she wants to keep some income on each of those clients (so, even if she can't fit them in, she doesn't want to refer them to another person) and she is also worried about loosing clients to another therapist. She even asked, if I saw a client of hers in my office, if I would be willing to provide her something back for the referral. I just simply told her I don't work that way. I can absolutely understand her wishes and why she has them... but, all of her ideas were a bad fit for me, since I then loose valuable time to be available for my own clients and their needs.
  
  I would be very interested in practicing with her, but I can't seem to find a way to make it work at this time."

I just simply told her I don't work that way. I can absolutely understand her wishes and why she has them... but, all of her ideas were a bad fit for me, since I then loose valuable time to be available for my own clients and their needs.

If you have enough clients of your own, you should NEVER work for anyone else. You don't need the money. If you do need the money, working for someone else -- or even having someone else obtain the clients -- does have a value and you should recognize this.

A second or PT job ALWAYS pays less than your FT job. If it didn't, then it WOULD BE your FT job. Why go through the hassle, expense and risk of starting a practice when you can just sub for one of 20 MTs in town who are always in need of a day off and you can collect 100% of their fees and use their space and stuff?

Again, you either didn't read the full context or were unable to comprehend what I was saying. I never said I don't recognize the value another therapist puts into gaining clients.

I disagree with your "NEVER" statement about working for someone if you have enough clients of your own. My life, practice and work are not solely about money. I actually do things that are not always the best thing for my pocketbook. That is my choice and each situation will negate how I make that particular choice.

I don't sub for 20 MT's in town who are always in need of a day off. Please re-read my post. t017

 

[Mace]

Subcontracting work

Yes... let's be clear. I said I lost a little money on my hourly fee. I did loose money on what would be my hourly fee in my private practice. I am not griping about it, so ditch the tone. I specifically said I "gained a little money" over the course of 4 weeks. .

No, you did not lose any money on your hourly fee. You did not have any clients willing to pay you your hourly fee during the hours that you sub contracted. If you did, you would not have subcontracted. You can't compare the $$ earned to subcontracting to mythical clients willing to pay your fee. There is only an "opportunity cost" if there was an actual opportunity lost.

Her argument is, she wants to keep some income on each of those clients (so, even if she can't fit them in, she doesn't want to refer them to another person) and she is also worried about loosing clients to another therapist. She even asked, if I saw a client of hers in my office, if I would be willing to provide her something back for the referral.

Why shouldn't she get something? She made the expenditure in the location and advertising to obtain the clients and has served them well in creating loyalty and referrals.

I never said she shouldn't. Again... you are trying to start something where there is nothing to start. Just because I mentioned her "argument", doesn't mean I am saying it is a bad reasoning if it is taking place in her office. I did however state "I can't find a way to make it work at this time" & that her "ideas were a bad fit for me"..

True, you did not use the word "shouldn't". YOur quote states her clients should come to you and pay your fee and you pay her $0 for working on them. Did not use the word "shouldn't", but it is pretty clear you don't think this other therapist deserves a dime. A distinction without a difference. YOu get 100% of the fee working on someone else's client.

You are trying to turn a sub-contract situation into a "referral". She is asking you to subcontract at her practice and to give you a % of the fee. YOu are turning it into "refer them to me and get $0". Having the client come to your practice instead of you seeing them in her practice is more convenient to you. And for this convenience that benefits you, you expect the other MT to earn LESS money. I have never seen a business that charges customers MORE when a transaction is MORE convenient to the business. Discounts are given when a client pays cash -- easier for the business to process. Pick up your groceriesn and it costs MORE than having them delivered.

I disagree with your "NEVER" statement about working for someone if you have enough clients of your own. My life, practice and work are not solely about money. I actually do things that are not always the best thing for my pocketbook. That is my choice and each situation will negate how I make that particular choice. [/quote4]

And NEVER working for someone else if you have enough clients of your own is not just about money either.

I don't sub for 20 MT's in town who are always in need of a day off. You are making up items, instead of reading my post. t017

I never said you did. I was applying the principle you cited to the market place. If working for someone else should net you the same as working for yourself, then everyone would be better off working for others, which is a logical and mathmatecial impossibility, which is why that logic does not work.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Subcontracting work

I really do appreciate both of you for making such passionate replies to my question but it seems as if the debate which has arisen is taking this thread away from my original question. I'm hoping you two can "agree to disagree" at this point and hopefully other members will feel free to contribute also.

Thank you both!

 

[Strawberry Julius]

Subcontracting work

I really do appreciate both of you for making such passionate replies to my question but it seems as if the debate which has arisen is taking this thread away from my original question.

This is a manifestation of your question. Why do some MTs think they should make X when they subcontract and X when they work for themselves? I don't understand why -- does not compute from a business stand point for either party.

 

[Leigh [ex nihilo]]

Subcontracting work

No, you did not lose any money on your hourly fee. You did not have any clients willing to pay you your hourly fee during the hours that you sub contracted. If you did, you would not have subcontracted.

:roll: Whatever.

Of course I had clients willing to pay me during the time I sub-contracted. I chose to not to make those days/times available to those clients.

True, you did not use the word "shouldn't". YOur quote states her clients should come to you and pay your fee and you pay her $0 for working on them. Did not use the word "shouldn't", but it is pretty clear you don't think this other therapist deserves a dime. A distinction without a difference. YOu get 100% of the fee working on someone else's client.

You are trying to turn a sub-contract situation into a "referral". She is asking you to subcontract at her practice and to give you a % of the fee. YOu are turning it into "refer them to me and get $0". Having the client come to your practice instead of you seeing them in her practice is more convenient to you. And for this convenience that benefits you, you expect the other MT to earn LESS money. I have never seen a business that charges customers MORE when a transaction is MORE convenient to the business. Discounts are given when a client pays cash -- easier for the business to process. Pick up your groceriesn and it costs MORE than having them delivered.]

No, I am not trying to do anything. She asked if I wanted to sub-contract. I did not. I then offered to take the clients who needed a therapist (while she was out of town) in my office for my fee. That is a business decision that a therapist is welcome to agree to or dismiss. I don't "expect" anything. This is what I do when I leave town, and it is fine for me. If it is not fine for someone else, that is their business decision. I do not give cash discounts.

...but it is pretty clear you don't think this other therapist deserves a dime.

*coughs* Bu*sh't. This therapist is a friend of mine. Don't even begin to try and tell me what I think she deserves.

I never said you did. I was applying the principle you cited to the market place. If working for someone else should net you the same as working for yourself, then everyone would be better off working for others, which is a logical and mathmatecial impossibility, which is why that logic does not work.

Well, your application fails to make sense, as I did not insinuate that I felt it was mandatory for anyone to work for someone else and get paid the same as working for ones-self. You are applying your logic to an idea you have contrived which is not equal to the idea I tried to impart.

 

[ScottAz]

Subcontracting work

I really do appreciate both of you for making such passionate replies to my question but it seems as if the debate which has arisen is taking this thread away from my original question. I'm hoping you two can "agree to disagree" at this point and hopefully other members will feel free to contribute also.

Thank you both!

I can agree to disagree.