Burt sees a judge over a yellow light ticket

[Shimmering]

Burt - Don't argue with people with guns; you are always going to lose. You are probally right; it doesn't matter.

I used to hear stories of people who fought with the IRS, same premise. Pay the fine and get the hell out of there as fast as you can; it's only money and you can always go earn some more.

 

[ACDC]

Wow, this is another classic "battle of the titans of the board" Burt Vs Fireballs ! Well debated I must say. Round 2 of 3 completed
My personal take on the TJ Cops is to maintain a firm but polite attitude, and it has held me in good stead in most countries. I have not been hassled by the cops, not yet, but once I stupidly got involved because of a Chica who was being arrested and I went to her rescue and ended up nearly going to jail on a "Felony charge, obstruction of justice " ! I admit I bribed my way out. Lessons learned not to overtly mess with other countries law system whatever it is.

 

[kdr_cmt]

Burt wrote:

It could be I fear that TJ police, but I like to think of it as having a healthy respect for them. But so far from my many years of mongering in Tijuana, and even living about 15 miles away in a nearby city in Mexico on weekends, and when I could get away. I have paid a total of $40 dollars in bribes. I almost never have any trouble with the TJ police, but know many others who have.

I like to bring up the US police to show how outrageous some peoples behavior is towards the TJ police, really they are not that different, as when as soon as you show a cop a lack of respect anywhere in the world, they seem to have it in for you and it goes down hill from there. You don't tell somebody with a gun you aren't going to follow their directions.

There are people on other sites that handled Burt's situation better then him. What many people do, when pressed to follow them, like they did with Burt, is play along with the TJ cops, telling them, OK I want to see the judge and will follow you, instead of what Burt did, which is tell the cops, I know the law, I'm not going to follow you, because I don't have to!" What you are doing is backing the cops in a corner, and once in a corner it's hard to get out. It's a lot better to show a little respect, allow them to let you go with a warning. if Burt played nice, I bet they would have let him go with a warning, instead he has a real ticket to pay, just because he wanted to show them he knew the law.

But if you want to play tough guy to the TJ police, that's up to everyone.

Regarding what's posted on the internet. Like a lot of other posts, their is a certain amount of bullshit, posted, and making the TJ cops back down, because you are such a tough guy. Sometimes after reading these posts I wonder why the TJ cops waste their time shaking down people, because so many mongers on prostitution boards make the TJ cops back down. you just know that's not reality?

My personal opinion is the majority of guys nearly piss in their pants when get ting stopped in Tijuana, and have the money out to pay a bribe before the TJ cops say anything, but that's just what I think?

Now Burt I believe he is crazy enough to try to take on the TJ police, and will probably pay dearly one day, if he hasn't already?

Now me I'll pay the bribe if I broke the law, or play along with the cops showing them a little respect, until they let me go with a warning, but that's just me.

 

[WWE Bragging Rights]

I respect Fireballs's right to have his own opinion, but I think he's way too afraid of the cops in TJ. I also find fear of the TJ cops is commonplace among those who lack the experience to know how things really work in Tijuana.


What U.S. cops do is irrelevent to predicting what TJ cops will do. Those who base their advice on how things work in the states do so because they lack the experience to know how things work in Mexico.


I'm calling bullshit on this. I can show posts that say Articulo 123 is unsafe. Can you do the same with the claim that "poliltely but firmly" standing up to the cops will "open yourself to trouble."

I've had four encounters with the TJ cops over the past five years. Each and every time "poliltely standing firm" hasn't resulted in any problems. Other mongers with a lot of TJ experience say the same thing. Show me some trip reports where it's got a monger into trouble.


This show the problem of thinking things in TJ work like they do in the US. TJ judges know the cops are corrupt. IMHO they'll believe the tourist, not the cop. That's how it went down in my case. Others report similar experiences.

Too many guys are too afraid of the cops. It comes mostly from lack of experience with how things really work in TJ. (There's nothing like having lived in a city to know how things really work.) The cops in TJ know that extortion and other illegal practices can get them into trouble. That's one of the reasons they back down when people "politely but firmly" stand their ground. The other is they are out to make money. Once they realize they are goint to get a bribe they usually move on. (I did something wrong--running a yellow light--otherwise they'd have let me go without giving me a ticket.)

IMHO there's no need to "wet your pants" when faced with police exortation. I've been through this four times in five years. (In three of the four cases I did nothing wrong and they simply let me go. In this last case I did something wrong so they wrote me a ticket.) Urban myths notwithstanding, the cops aren't going to put you into a car and dump you in an unsafe neighborhood. They won't drive you around until you pay. They're not going to lock you up, beat you, etc. Once they realize you're not going to pay they go will go their way and let you go yours.

 

[Wavey]

Burt wrote:

I liked Burt's story as there is nothing wrong with being assertive, but in my opinion Burt went over the line of just being assertive when he refused the TJ cops request to follow them to the police station.

Just imagine what would happen to you in the states if you refused a cops request, even if you were in the right, you would get arrested for obstruction of justice, to even assault on a police officer if you are fighting them off you.

It's not up to you to determine your guilt or innocents, nor is it's the cops, it's up to the judge. If a TJ cop gives you an order you should follow his direction. If it turns out to be bullshit, he will let you go at the last minute. But by playing tough, and I call refusing to go follow him, playing tough. You open yourself to trouble, instead of a small minor problem, that a $20 bribe would take care of, it could become a major problem, and end with you getting handcuffed in the back of the patrol car. They might take you for a ride a few hours trying to get a bigger bribe, or if they decide to take you in....it can be on trumped-up charges along with resisting arrest! Who is the TJ judge going to believe you or the US tourist? Have you ever tried to fight a ticket in the states? The cops win all the time, unless they don't show up. It's no different in Mexico.

My advice if you don't live in TJ and if you did something wrong, pay the bribe, write if off as the cost of doing business. Leave the heroics to others.

 

[geyamala ?????? ??? ????]

Its good you were close and it was convenient for you....however some people do not want to take the time to go back down to TJ, take a day off work for $5 bucks even if the bribe was $40.00. Its good to know the information but I am glad you can bribe the TJ cops and I wish you could bribe the cops here in the US.....it would save a lot of time and money. I'm not saying not to stand up to TJ cops because I do.....I have been shaken down on many occasions in the Zona and I agree with you that they target greengos......but as long as you stand firm and you are not breaking the law(no drugs, pissing on the sidewalk, shitfaced drunk, etc..), the TJ cops will let you go without a bribe. In your case you were driving and breaking the law according to the Mexican Law......Its good that you went through with it and found out how the system works......many of us other mongers do not have the time and are not in close proximity of the border to be able to go through with this........

 

[Pompal 09.]

I drive in Tijuana all the time. (I'm often there seven days a week.) I've never had an accident while driving in TJ and this is my first traffic ticket in TJ since 1986. (I had one other stop a few years ago. But after "standing firm" the cops let me go with a warning.)

So I don't consider it unsafe to drive in Tijuana. However, I try to avoid driving near the ZN. (I park in a lot near south Revo and walk to the Zona.) IMHO the only time you fear tickets in TJ is when you're driving near the ZN.

Would the cops have taken $20.00? Perhaps, but I doubt it. My guess is they'd have wanted at least $40.00.

As far as wasting time by going to court: It took less than 15 minutes. (I made a quick stop while going to visit my novia.) The whole thing was very informal. However, those who don't go to TJ often would, no doubt, find it a time consuming process. (I suggest they pay the ticket my mail.)

Here's the thing: As long as gringos are willing to pay bribes they will remain extortion targets. While I doubt things are going to change (too many guys "wet their pants" when confronted by the cops), I do wish everyone would stand up to the cops so we could eliminate the problem.

 

[Apple OF Royality]

BTW, as Burt mentioned he is in TJ often and it took 15 minutes. He did violate a traffic law, and paid the fine(reduced).

 

[Fallon123]

I wouldn't say never drive to Mexico. I am sure they would have taken the $20, but I think there are some folks that would rather go to court and pay $35, than line the pockets of officers looking for a bribe.

The lesson learned is to stand up and ask to see a judge. In most cases the officers won't even write the ticket.

 

[offilla]

Good information......I wonder if the cops would have taken $20.00.
I hate going to court even in the US......It is such a waste of time.
Two key points to be taken from this story( never drive into Mexico, if you are on a long trip thats kind of impossible) The other one is find out how much the bribe is.......if you can negotiate it to $20.00 it is worth it because you dont have to waste a whole day of your time gong to see some judge and you SAVED money......

 

[mama mia]

I posted this on another site. I'm posting it here too as the advisabilty of asking to see a judge has been a topic of disucssion on this site.

-------------------------------------

Saturday about 1:30 am on Padre Kino (close to the border) I was stopped by the TJ cops for running a yellow light. By breaking hard I probably could have stopped, but didn’t as “panic stops” are a good way of getting rear ended. I cleared the intersection before the light turned red.

The first thing the cops did was ask if I’d been drinking. I truthfully said “no” and let them smell my breath. After realizing they couldn’t get me for drunk driving they informed me that in Mexico it is illegal not to break for a yellow light.

They wanted me to go to the police station to pay a fine. I took this as an attempt to get me to offer them a bribe, although they never explicitly requested one. I “didn’t bite.” I also refused to go to the police station.

I told them the website for the Municipality of Tijuana said they had to write me a ticket which I could pay by mailing a check to a mailbox in San Ysidro. They said that program had ended, the mailbox was closed, the website was out of date, etc. We politely argued for a while. Finally (to save face as we all knew I my information was correct) one of the cops used his radio to call somebody. He moved far enough away that I couldn’t hear any part of the conversation. After finishing the call they wrote me a ticket.

The cops were extremely polite throughout my “adventure.” They always addressed me using the honorific “caballero” instead of seٌor. They asked to see my driver’s license and registration, but never attempted to search me or the car. They told me (correctly) the fine would be about US $80.00 and advised me to see a judge within three business days to get the fine reduced.

There are several places listed on the ticket where a person can go to see a judge. Yesterday I went to see the municipal judge at the police station at 8th and Constitution. (First door on the left as you climb the steps on 8th Street.)

I very truthfully told him what happened. He informed that the Mexican law is different from that in the US regarding red lights. He said in Mexico the flashing green means prepare to stop. That when the light turns yellow the driver is required to stop—that it doesn’t matter if you can clear the intersection before the light turns red.

He said that he would reduce the fine for an early payment. I then told him I felt the only reason the cops stopped me was to get a bribe and explained how they wanted me to go to the police station. He said I did the right thing by not paying them and then further reduced the fine to 350 pesos.

My goal was to see how the system works. I knew when I was stopped that I could have paid a bribe. I would definitely have saved time and perhaps some money by having paid a bribe to the cops. But I doubt I’d have gotten the cops to accept much, if anything, lower than US $35.00. So I don’t think I lost much money though my “experiment” with the Mexican legal system. Since I spend a lot of time in Tijuana I didn’t have to make a special trip to see the judge and my “experiment” in seeing a judge took less than 15 minutes.

(I suspect if I’d lied to the judge and said the light turned yellow while I was in the intersection and the cops stopped me for a bribe he would have dismissed the case. Or I could have spent $18.00 to get the DMV to replace a set of lost/stolen plates. But if I’d done something like that I wouldn’t have been able to gain some first hand experience with the Mexican legal system—and that’s what I wanted.)

I always advise people to politely but firmly stand up to the cops when they haven’t done anything wrong. I haven’t had many police encounters in TJ. This is the first time after saying “I want to see the judge” that I had that opportunity. Things turned out better than I expected. I won’t hesitate in the future to say “I want to see the judge” (they’re on duty 24/7) or to advise others to do the same.