Mr Martin Knight/Spinal foundation

[Power of m squared]

My brother had an ELF procedure to remove scar tssue around the nerve at l4/l5 after previous open surgery.MRI clearly showed scar tissue in this area. Discogram also highlighted the problem.
After the procedure, my brother was still in alot of pain and had quite a bad reaction with it all. The sciatic pain has never gone away and he is still hobbling around. He has had a further MRI scan and it shows pretty much as before, a hell of alot of scar tissue around the nerve at L4/L5, so it does nt seem to have achieved anything !! I have seen the scans and they seem to be exactly the same as pre-op to post op after 6 mnths
His option is to have another go and pay for another ELF operation , but i am not to sure if he can afford another £10,400.Its a shame you cant get a reduction in price when the first one does nt work from the outset !!

 

[kokptulb]

That is all what I am talking about in my posts - MISS surgery is FIRST LINE OF TREATMENT for all spinal problems. Unfortunately, your brother already had open spine surgery, and that compromises possible outcomes of minimally-invasive treatments.

MISS surgery does not exclude future surgical treatments and it rarely makes things more difficult for patients.

Medical Tourism is very popular nowdays, so people travel abroad even for spinal surgery to save money.

 

[Alexandria]

Surgery should never be seen as a First Line of Treatment for anything. All risks and alternative treatments should be assessed before jumping into something that can have major consequences.

Myarka

 

[knoxzi]

Sorry, I was not clear enough!

I should have said like this: MISS surgery is FIRST LINE OF TREATMENT for all spinal problems, when conservative therapy including steroids infiltration has failed.

 

[MusicFan44]

Well, i somehow came across this website and i was quite intrigued to read some other stories.Unfortunalty i am in the same boat as some of the other "replies". I had convential discectomy on the lower back and was left with some scar tissue problems. After trying the normal injections without success, i to opted to go to the Spinal Foundation as they reccommended laser to remove the scarring. Unfortunatly that did not happen , i had a hell of alot of pain after the surgery, i was really in a bad way for the first 3 mnths and when i finally got another scan , the radiologsit reported basically that there was no difference with the scar tissue compression to the scan before the procedure to that after, So i think it is fair to say it was a COMPLETE FAILURE!!!. I to was offered a revision ELF but of course with no guarentee of success and to be honest i dont want to go through the pain after the op again,,,,we are talking 9/10 even with strong medication(i was struggling to get through the day), I am now looking at other procedures in Europe which may also give good results and a lot less money.

I know everyone is different,but to those who are pushing this,,,just be aware it does not always work and of course its very expensive and very rarely funded by the NHS,

 

[CoolGurl4Life]

Andy that is very sad, but there is a much higher sucess rate for 1st time operations obviously with a fbs you are going to be a difficult case and once scar tissues have formed after the invasion of conventional surgery it is very difficult for any procedure to correct that.

The USA appear to be the only country that uses a slightly different method of touching the nerves that does not result in any after op rebound pain that MK expects due to the trauma of removing scar tissue from nerves.

Good luck with your quest

 

[HannahTheSwearBear]

Hiya Andy and welcome.

I am very sorry to see that you did not have ‘a positive outcome’ after your spinal procedure at The Spinal Foundation. What procedure did you have done?

You are quite right of course Andy, there are ‘no guarantees’ when it comes to ‘any’ spinal surgery. The key to any successful procedure, is finding the correct diagnosis and target area/s!

But even when you do locate the correct target area, as with me, complications (like original scarring) can negatively affect ‘a fully positive’ clinical outcome. In my case, after a long period of research, the sciatic pains that came from my L4/5 level, were believed to be the cause ‘of all’ of my pains and disabilities. However, 12 months after the successful (ELFD) sciatic ‘osteophyte’ decompression operation, it became clear that ‘only half of my symptoms’ were fully cleared. After further research, it has become clearer, that I also needed to have cleared, an L5/S1 level ‘disc’ impingement. Although this problem was noted in 5 prior MRI scans, 7 Consultants underestimated the effects of this ‘disc’ impingement, those underestimating this, included Mr. Martin Knight and Myself!

Traditional ‘open back’ based procedures, like your first procedure, are well known for creating post operative scarring, lesions and general spinal instability. Minimally Invasive Endoscopic surgical procedures ‘are much less likely’ to have caused those problems in the first place, as the procedures are specifically designed to avoid such issues. Once these scarring issues have been created, it becomes very difficult indeed to remove them. More operations = more damage.

(MISS) procedures are generally much safer and have more safety and efficacy rates, testing results and long term outcome information available (from around the world) so that patients can make an informed choice. After 4 years of research, 5 NHS spinal units have declared that they do not make, record or keep anyinformation about the safety & effectiveness of decompression procedures, nor have they carried out any trials, or possess any results of trials carried out elsewhere!! So it is clear to anyone who does their own research, that there is little in the way of ‘true choice’ in this country!

I am glad you are not giving up your search for a procedure to clear your suffering, do you’re your research well and always demand ‘factual’ answers and ‘published medical papers’ to any of your questions.

Look for 'transforaminal approach' techniques, as these MISS procedures will reduce the likelyhood of further scarring that you received with your traditional open back procedure.

Don't be fooled by false MISS claims, if it cuts through muscle, tissue, nerves, tendons and bone, then it's not MISS.


Here are some helpful links if you have not already found them Andy.

www.laserspinenetwork.com

www.spine-surgery-croatia.com/spinal-surgery-in-europe-price-comparison

www.bcn-sc.com

www.placidway.com

www.bandscheibenvorfall.de

www.joimax.com


Wishing you the very best


SPINELF

 

[ledgauhhaUg]

Hi,
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with your surgery from Martin Knight.

What procedure did you have?
I'm going to see Martin Knight On Monday so I'm very interested to hear about the drawbacks of his treatment- many people seem to have a success story but these are the ones you tend to see posted on the discussion boards.
Did the pain ever reduce or do you still have it? What kind of pain? Were you warned before the operation that this was possible outcome?

 

[Edward Cullen # 1 Fan]

I will try to be as simple as I can, generally speaking.

Every surgery has risks, even when you are pulling your teeth with advanced oral surgeon.

Traditional spine surgery has overall long-term success from 50-70% and intraoperative complications rate up to 10%.

MISS (that respected Martin Knight is performing) has overall long-term success rate from 80-90%, and intraoperative complications happen in 1% of cases.

What I want to say? Me, you, your grandmother or your cousin can be in this 1% of Martin Knight's complications cases. Nobody can predict that and not everything is the surgeon's hands.

The fact it - YOU ALL HAVE BETTER CHANCES OF SUCCESS AND LIFE WITHOUT PROBLEMS IF YOU CHOOSE MINIMALLY-INVASIVE SPINE SURGERY. This is the fact proven in scientific studies and worldwide research in past 20 years.

 

[Assist_u]

And your source is?

Thanks,
Myarka

 

[mabisking26]

Is it not the case that an assessment of statistics against one man performing one method of surgery in Bristol against what i have been told is the 2nd most common spinal procedure (open surgery) in the UK of very shallow use? albeit very interesting.

 

[Aland]

If you write to MK he will send you a huge pile of independent documents and statistics bearing out that fact, and as a part of his consultation he goes through every possible treatment and operation and gives the facts and figures of the success rates and what can be expected. Funny cos your question was exactly what my nhs surgeon asked me, when I asked him for proof of his figures he couldn't provide any facts to back up his low rate of success or the 53% chance that I may end up in a wheel chair and he didn't really seem to care either.

It's all about research really and a persons choice.

 

[Green Eggs & Ham]

are you saying that 53% of people who have open surgery for discectomies end up in a wheel chair?!

 

[Matthew T]

Not exactly, those were the figures I was given for my situation and there will be several reasons why they decided on that rather high figure, age, extent of the disc protrusion/herniation, nearness to the spinal nerves etc etc.

Bad luck for me but meant I wasn't going to risk it whilst I can still walk a little, hence looking for other alternatives.Just ask your surgeon lots of questions, everyone is different and needs to be treated asuch.

But, then again we all know there is a risk in any operation.

 

[Abbey<3]

Do you know i can not believe the amount of people i already know or have been aquainted with who have this problem. Just today i bumped into a former colleague who had been given a 50/50 on whether he would walk again post discectomy.

Prior to my operation i was given the usual stats of 10 % chance of minor complication and 90% success rate i did enquire with my surgeon and he did say that those were the stats for someone of my age (32 years male). However another friend of mine of same age having been given the same stats had a serious relapsed and a second discectomy (5 years gap).

I too believe that information should not just be accepted but honed using as much query and questioning as possible.


I so so hope you get the type of surgery you need.

Might be worth a plane ticket to america and an E1 11!

 

[? ? ? Baby Mumma ? ? ?]

Hiya Myarka.

I don't know which studies Keano was specifically referring to
when he stated (((YOU ALL HAVE BETTER CHANCES OF
SUCCESS AND LIFE WITHOUT PROBLEMS IF YOU CHOOSE MINIMALLY-INVASIVE SPINE SURGERY)) The fact it - This is
the fact proven in scientific studies and worldwide research in past
20 years.)) and I am not speaking for Keano or anyone else for
that matter, nor am I sourcing his words, but I 'genuinely hope'
that I can help you and other members with a better understanding
of Keano’s basic 'and I believe' correct assertion.

The assertion is, that 'the less' a Spine Surgeon damages skin,
tissue, nerves, ligaments and cartilage during their approach to
the patients problem area 'the better'. This is particularly true of
muscle and vertebral damage, as damage here can cause
significant and lasting weaknesses and spinal imbalance, even
after the goals of an operation has been 'successfully' achieved.
As a general point, I feel sure that we all would agree, that
avoidance of this type of collateral damage and complications,
must be a good thing for patients!

To help with this understanding, I have posted (below) just a
small amount of the available information, which independently
confirms the shear volume of the 'consensus' of the medical
community, as to the 'necessity, validity and increasing
acceptance' of MISS procedures and principles by main
stream medical bodies around the world. In fact, the 'huge
increase' in MISS information has even staggered me!
There has been a 'massive explosion' of available concurring
medical information over the last 3 years!!

I must however offer a word of caution, not all stated MISS
procedures are actually MISS procedures at all. Minimal
clearly means, the least of, the smallest amount of or the
smallest proportion of, depending on the dictionary's you use,
so if a procedure can be improved by reducing the amount of
cutting and stripping involved in it, then it is not 'by definition'
minimal. This confusion is allowed because the MISS tag is
not protected by patent laws, so anything 'less invasive' than
traditional 'open back' spinal surgery can legally be called
MISS, and frequently is being described as MISS, even
when these procedures are often not strictly or
sometimes not even remotely minimal.

However, I strongly believe, that this 'does not mean'
that these procedures are worthless, if a procedure tries
to maintain a patients mobility without creating serious side
effects, it can still be considered very beneficial and
appropriate for the patient. I think that these procedures are
best described as Less Invasive Spine Surgery or 'LISS' or
'MAS' rather than MISS, thus avoiding confusing potential
patients. Her are some examples!
http://www.spinalsurgerynews.com/articles.php?key1=8&
key2=1
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/227718
https://www.ianjharding.com/Treatments.html

This link below shows just how far 'some organisations'
and 'Surgeons' are prepared to go, to associate themselves
with the minimally invasive 'MISS brand' and just how
careful the potential patients must be in selecting a treatment
route. In the video in the link below, the procedure is
advertised as Minimally Invasive Lumber Fusion, but as
you can clearly see from the images, the patient's back is
clearly ‘open’ and ‘kept open’ by the use of expanding
retractors, which stretch, pull and compress the surrounding
body parts, which in itself, could cause post operative
complications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBql4G7fUKA&
feature=related

In order to be even handed, I have included 2 links to
sites that 'reasonably dispute' the superiority of MISS
over conventional ‘open back’ procedures, these are
reasoned findings, but what is interesting to note, is that
even these reports fail to prove that MISS spine surgery
is significantly less effective than open back surgery nor
that MISS is in any way, more dangerous.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076584

http://www.spine-health.com/treatment/back-surgery
/minimally-invasive-anterior- approach-spine-surgery

The variety of links below, not only show the increase of
MISS procedures and clinics, including units at some of the
worlds most renowned hospitals like Johns Hopkins and
New York Presbyterian, but also of the many and varied
legitimate procedural differences within the MISS family.
Some of these links are gleaned from medical and
academic sources, others from practicing clinics, others
from press releases and medical web sites and so on. As
such, these are not my words, nor those of Keano, but those
of respected and experienced Surgeons from around the world
and which can be found on peer and patient re-viewable
resources.

Their conclusions appear to be, that 'future investment and
training' in the MISS group of procedures, is a desirable and
an evolutionary course of action for every spinal unit or clinic,
be they NHS or private, because any procedure that reduces
'procedural damage' caused by 'working area access' will
offer the best possible and most consistent post operative
clinical outcomes for patients with chronic spinal nerve
compressions. I think this and the overwhelming evidence
below is why Keano reached his emphatic statement!

Sadly, you will see that very few of these dynamic MISS, MAS
and LISS centres are located in Britain, this is why the focus of
MISS treatment supporters threads on this forum are
concentrated and polarized on the 2 or 3 UK clinics that offer
this cutting edge treatment!

However, I believe that this 'increasing awareness' of the
medical community, about MISS principles, is on an
inexorable advance towards every day use of minimally
invasive principles and techniques which will take root in
Britain, but again sadly, probably not in my life time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21107934

http://www.smiss.org/minimally-invasive-faq.php

http://www.ismissturkey.org

http://neurosurgery.stanford.edu/patient_care/neurospine.html

http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/sep09/clinical12.asp

http://www.spinal-foundation.org/Clinical-Outcome-Research
/ELF-Clinical-Outcomes

http://newsatjama.jama.com/category/journalologypeer-
reviewauthorship

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/neurology_neurosurgery/
specialty_areas/spine/conditions/minimally_invasive_spine_
surgery.html

http://nyp.org/enews/minimally-invasive-back-surgery.html

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/minimally_invasive_
spine_surgery/sp_overview.aspx

http://www.jbjs.org.uk/media/31938/focuson_lumbar.pdf

http://www.spineuniverse.com/treatments/surgery/minimally
-invasive-spine-surgery-information

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1090489/I-
surgery-spine--awake-time.html

http://www.bidmc.org/CentersandDepartments/
Departments/SpineCenter/HotTopics/MinimallyInvasive
EndoscopicSurgery.aspx

http://www.sages.org/publication/id/PI03

http://www.jbjs.org/article.aspx?Volume=88&page=226

http://www.cxvascular.com/sn-features/spinal-news---
features/is-minimally-invasive-spinal-surgery-the-future

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijso/2011/598148

http://www.beckersorthopedicandspine.com/spine/item/
9710-endoscopic-spine-surgery-6-things-to-know-
about-the-present-and-future

http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/2886/iprenburg1.pdf

http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/3224/godschalx.pdf


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076584

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3095800

http://www.isass.org/pdf/sas11/3-Thursday/Plenary-
Degenerative-Scoliosis-Where-to-End-the-Fusion/527.pdf

http://www.wsc.ae/pagecontents.aspx?pageid=10

http://www.totalhealth.co.uk/clinical-experts/mr-khai-
lam/minimal-access-spinal-surgery


To discover just how far behind 'technological advances'
British diagnostics services are, take a look at these 2 links,
they show where we should be!

http://www.uprightmri.co.uk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCtVKwO65mQ&feature=player_embedded

Over the last 4 years, like Cascara, I have received 5-6
clinical trial reports regarding the clinical outcomes of MISS
procedures, I have stored them away, but I am unable to get
at them at the moment. If I get better soon, I will find them
and post these links as well.

I hope I have gone some way to answering your question
Myarka,

Best wishes and kind regards

SPINELF

 

[Pompal 09.]

I simply can not believe the amount of people i have met (not via the internet) now who have experienced this ailment, including friends i have known for years who would rather never mention their experience post surgery even to their close friends. Since i have under gone open back surgery for my L5/S1 i have virtually unlocked a subculture wherever and whenever i mention what i have been through.

The experiences always seem to be the same that the wait on the NHS is ridiculous and in the event of surgery whether private or on the NHS it is always open surgery. Spinelf and other posters are right that in the UK we do not get the cutting edge treatment that is available elsewhere in the world. This is as much a political issue as it is a health care issue.

Despite the ill timing (in view of current events) and the fact that i personally have undergone open back surgery (seemingly with successful results and minimal damage) I would be more than intrigued to see if any members of this group (particularly in view of the good research of some members) would be interested in lobbying central government about this issue.

I would love to know some thoughts on this from people who may have the time and inclination in particular from posters with a wealth of input and sources such as keanu and spinelf.

I work across various areas of law including employment and unfair dismissal as a result of prolonged absence from work and i am constantly bombarded with benign statistics about absences from work as a result of back pain or back ailments. My surgeon also has informed me that he believes that discectomies are probably the 2nd most frequent spinal procedure in the UK. Isn't it about time this condition was met with a quicker willingness to provide a proper MRI at the outset with the best and least damaging surgery available to get the hundreds of people back to work quickly?!

How excellent it could be try and take the input and research of members of this forum directly to central govt.....or maybe i'm suffering from a eutopian episode.

who says you have to be in oil to lobby government?

 

[Romper Stomper]

Good research SPINELF.

I didn't want to respond to Myarka because answers are so obvious and she already knew them...

If you are interested in benefits and the advantages of minimally-invasive spine surgery (from technical and scientific point of view) - do the research, this 5 links are more than enough.

http://www.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-minimally-invasive-spinal-technology/
American Journal of Neuroradiology
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
ScienceDirect - Home
National Center for Biotechnology Information

Regards.

 

[YDP]

I have been looking at this very thing. It would be great to put all this knowledge to good

 

[Linda R]

Me too Cassie, I have given this ‘lobbying matter’ a lot of thought over the years, and have come to the conclusion that ‘only’ a multi pronged approached will succeed.
Something along these lines:

1)
Get the support of a sympathetic MP, perhaps someone who has personally experienced spinal problems, or someone who has family members who are or have experienced these problems, and is prepared to really mix it up in parliament and to raise support amongst other MP’s ahead of an E-petition campaign!

2)
Get the support of a sympathetic and brave, newspaper or media ‘medical issues’ Editor, who could raise the awareness of all of UK’s spinal pain sufferers and their families by posting regular editorials, features and providing more comprehensive research than any of us can muster, and will be able to support the build up to the E-petition launch!

3)
Set up an E-petition with a ‘carefully and strongly worded demand’ for the release of information (that we know they don’t have) and for immediate improvements in NHS spinal diagnostics and treatment services, funding for 'out of area' treatment as of right, and even 'out of country' procurement and funding for the most cutting edge minimally invasive and spine surgeons if required, who can provide the best outcome results for their patients.

4)
Get support from a ‘pro bono’ or ‘no win, no fee’ legal team, to support challenges against any obstruction, non-compliance or down right fibbing as ‘the guilty get twitchy’ as the public get to see what exactly is going on in the world of UK spinal services.

I realise, that this may seem a bit ‘alarmist’ to many, but I truly believe, that when the power and finances of the corporate and medical ‘legal eagles’ and ‘PR people’ swing into action, to protect this ‘very lucrative’ health market, I believe that the ‘oncoming backlash’ will be a thing to marvel!

SPINELF