BBC2 Jan 24th 9pm

[BTK]

KittenWarrior, I don't follow what you're saying. In the programme, they debunked the placebo idea.

 

[raburtta halford]

As a scientist on a career break (it doesn't pay me to be an employee scientist due to chronic disease), I have the following criticism of the research:

The research did not prove that acupunture worked, it only proved that needling at the acupressure point for pain worked In other words, the research proved the validity of the "puncture" part of acupunture only.

I would have liked to see proof of the more important part of acupuncture, the meridians and the points on the meridians. To do this, another control would be required at various other points not known as acupuncture points. Comparing the results of needling of these points to the needling of the point used in this research would be stronger evidence that acupuncture worked.

Needless to say (excuse the pun), I have total faith in acupuncture for many conditions.

What do you think?

 

[gummyd]

Hi Darren, my thoughts may have taken me off on a tangent (sorry!). The research obviously proved acupuncture works over and above the placebo effect. I was just wondering whether the people that had the sham acupuncture still got results verses the group that didn't have any treatment? I was just pondering the power of the mind to make us feel less pain.

KW

 

[Sublimeonelove]

i didnt see the programme, but it does annoy me that these programmes always focus on the "big" therapies... will reflexology be highlighted?[/align][/align]anyway,[/align][/align]aragorn,[/align][/align]we have had these discussions before on the boards, particularly the convincing a sceptic, asi recall.[/align][/align]and yes, is a "worrying" idea in as much, from my understanding and what you have told me in the past, western acupuncture is nothing like "real" acupuncture. [/align][/align]and whilst pain relief is a wonderful thing, getting to the cause of the symptom has got to be better. but GP's still do not have the time, so pain relief is their best option, it would seem.[/align][/align]suzanne,[/align][/align][/align]i have studied acupressure but am no expert. i would hazard a guess though, that seeing as the body has hundreds of acu points all over, it would be quite hard, i would think, to carry out what you are suggesting.
[/align]

 

[AznJay]

Hi Rosie,



I believe next week they are covering healing (not sure what they are covering under that)and the week after herbal remedies, I believe it is only a 3 part pragramme. So, short answer, I do not think they are touching reflexology.

So we will have to see what next week brings.

Jo

 

[Toulfubloft]

Really interestingprogramme but for me personally I could never use acupuncture as I have a "thing" about needles and would probably run screaming from the building if approached by anyone with that number of needles!!!
It is great it works for some people though....

 

[Harrisken]

Speak to an EFT therapist.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions as this would be a bit off-topic.

 

[raigafan18]

<sigh>

 

[hujwspox]

Jan 31st program...

Pretty vacuous reporter faux-scientist sham grrrrrr! No surprises how she got that job is all I can say.

Instead of concentrating on research on spiritual healing, she went on to disprove the value of any treatment whatsoever saying a placebo was just as good. Say that to someone in A&E with their guts on the floor and their skull in several pieces. No, I don't think a placebo is just as good as the real thing in every case and I would happily set about proving it.

So our silly vacuous reporter decides that she should find research done by.... wait for it.. a psychologist.... about healers. Sure, a psychologist is perfectly capable of understanding string theory, interatomic interactions and the like, why all our physics labs are staffed by psychologists, not! This has been going on since yours truly graduated in 1989 and is still carried out by psychologists. Whatever next? Janitors? Anyway, this research done by the psychologist teaches a "fake" healer how to heal, thereby creating a healer. It also has too many variables. The results are that both original healer and the newly-taught healer get the same results. Any Reiki Master will quite happily say something like that to their Reiki 1 students.

Also, SVR goes to the USA where she finds a lab that explains the Aura. Freaked out by how we can unscientifically possibly have any electromagnetism, she changes the subject completely to the power of the placebo. The mind boggles.

So, if SVR is reading this, maybe you should have done a simple Google search. Theis is just one example of what a brief search came up with:
http://www.google.com/scholar?q=Bengston+WF,+Krinsley+D.+The+effect+of+the+%22laying+on+of+hands%22+on+transplanted+...+Journal+of+Scientific+Exploration.+2000%3B14(3):353-364&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2005-09,GGGL:en&sa=N&tab=ss&oi=scholart

 

[courtney!]

hi suzanne,[/align][/align]yes i saw the programme and was very disappointed by the reporting... it wasnt really unbiased, was it! [/align][/align]my views are similar to yours... teach someone to "heal" (cant use the term tsk tsk!) and yeah, they become open to the "energies" and so can do as well as someone who learnt becasue they wanted to! dont we say... anyone can do this stuff, just open up to it?[/align][/align]what does amaze me, in programmes such as this, is why the reporter doesnt say, "ok, do it to me... see if i feel anything, feel better and more able." they never seem to.[/align][/align]as therapists, of whatever modality, these prorammes do us no favours and can also sway the publics perception, driving them back to pharmaceutical "quick fixes"... hey was the programme sponsored by smith klein or someone? [&:][/align][/align]referring back to the thread on science about convincing sceptics, it was "decided" there that double blind testing would be near to impossible and this programme sort of backed that up. the fake healer actor kinda proved that... lol be interesting to know if he uses his new found skills![/align][/align]

 

[Rio]

Not knowing of this thread, I posted on the 'healing' programme at
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643[/link]

Anyone who's read my posts knows I'm not a full sceptic by any means - believing in chi and acupuncture for example. And many other healing methods too. But alternative techniques can sometimes get pretty wacky, and I don't accept them all blindly either. So I found the research on the placebo effect interesting. It's just one step from unwitting patients getting placebo which works to witting people healing themselves (as one patient in the programme said, in his words). Just as 'scientists' shouldn't dismiss alternative healing methods, those using them - and the allopathic world - shouldn't ignore the Reality of the placebo effect, it seems.

Sometimes at New Age Fairs I've seen things as wacky as "Sit under this wire pyramid and place this metal cap on your head. It's connected by wire to that energy crystal which was charged through our hands from the Planet ZXyphon." Or along those lines - and people pay for it and do it. Well - if there's healing, is that from ZXyphon or from the person? So in what other therapies is this happening - if it can even cure arthritic knees by fake operations (refer to other thread or the TV prog)?

Rosie, glancing at your sign-off, you don't believe in double blinds but do in double entendres? There you go - it's all about belief.

V

 

[TheMacGamer]

I watched this programme and thought the result for Acupuncture was brilliant last week.
However, NO surprise about the conclusions last night! [sm=banghead.gif] It would have been a more scientific test if they had had two groups of animals - animals don't understand placebos, they either get better or they don't!!

Didanyone else think it was unethical that asurgeongave people anaesthetic and cut them open butdidn't actually doing anything, just to prove the placebo effect?? [sm=confused-smiley-012.gif]

 

[rqegsufqihciinesg]

Hi Poppet, I don't know but would strongly guess that they'd signed up that it might not be real surgery. In America of all places, the legalities would have been covered.

 

[terrell]

Well how stupid are they? I've had surgery and there's NO WAY I would consent to being opened up unless there was a good reason for doing it!!

 

[NOUB]

http://www.energyresearch.bizland.com/ is someone else she should have consulted.

 

[Elyse]

Poppet, I too was very disturbed that people were having a general anaestheticand being opened up needlessly. When I told my husband later on he was astonished. Having anaesthesia and surgery is not something to be undertaken lightly!

I was disappointed that most of the programme seemed to be dedicated to the placebo effect, and so little about healing in its different forms. The placebo effect should have been explored in a programme of its own.

 

[GSD]

I carry out reiki and when I first learnt it I was quite amazed at what I, and others felt.

Having watched this programme, it did diturb me a little. I have had spiritual healing done by my sister-in-law whilst she was in training, and again I was amazed at what she and I both felt etc. Although, I must abmit it has never made me feel any better or even assisted in curing anything that I may have had. It does relax me and I find it very therapeutic.

Anyway, thinking about illnesses are only in the mind, to me is quite true. I do feel that it is mind over matter. I have never let my illnesses, aches or pains get in the way of my day to day life things, and as soon as I start thinking about it the pain feels worse and I feel totally run down, but as soon as I start doing other things soon enough the pain has gone without realising.

It's all weird. I say stay positive and don't dwell over illnesses you may have. Soon enough they will go away.

Goodchild

 

[Ebo]

[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key[/link]=[/align][/align]if you folks havent already seen this thread, please go check it out. its about this series and venetian (lord bless his cotton socks!) has emailed the presenter, Dr Kathy Sykes, to come and view our discussion. [/align][/align]

 

[M W]

found this website when searching for info about the programme:
[link=http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html]http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html[/link]

it might make for interesting reading

 

[Passion (is NOT sick)]

They don't make any bones about their viewpoint, do they! It's a bit extraordinary for a university to be so outspoken... It's not the kind of thing a uni would naturally be into... I mean, there's a lot of negative emotion gone into that site, it seems to me...

V