Fair Deal?
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... ย citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. ย They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... ย citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. ย They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
Thanks for all of your input. ย It has been helpful. ย The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. ย As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Fair Deal?
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around.
What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around.
What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. ย It gives me something to strive for! ย Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: ย $300 rent fair, YES. ย $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. ย I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. ย mick
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Topic review - Fair Deal?
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Jen
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ย ;)Be well,Jen
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ย ;)Be well,Jen
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:55 am
gutehands
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
*applause*
*applause*
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:08 am
Intuitouch
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:Thanks for all of your input. ุขย It has been helpful.You are welcome. ุขย It is nice to have someone actually ask.Quote:The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? ุขย Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. ุขย Quote:As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ุขย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? ุขย My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. ุขย But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. ุขย
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. ุขย However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. ุขย Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. ุขย You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. ุขย My hope is you will consider what we've shared. ุขย Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
[quote]Thanks for all of your input. ุขย It has been helpful.[/quote]You are welcome. ุขย It is nice to have someone actually ask.[quote]The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.[/quote]I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? ุขย Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. ุขย [quote]As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ุขย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".[/quote]
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? ุขย My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. ุขย But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. ุขย
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. ุขย However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. ุขย Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. ุขย You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. ุขย My hope is you will consider what we've shared. ุขย Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:37 am
StressSolutions
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. ย It gives me something to strive for! ย Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: ย $300 rent fair, YES. ย $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. ย I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. ย mick
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. ย It gives me something to strive for! ย Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: ย $300 rent fair, YES. ย $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. ย I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. ย mick
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:28 pm
superspagirl
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. :) What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:48 pm
Citychiro
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Thanks for all of your input. ย It has been helpful. ย The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. ย As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Thanks for all of your input. ย It has been helpful. ย The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. ย As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:20 am
Texas-gal
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย IMO, that is fair.
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... ุขย citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. ุขย They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
[quote]For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย IMO, that is fair.[/quote]
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... ุขย citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. ุขย They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:24 am
Texas-gal
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I have to say, I really like this post.
[quote]I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.[/quote]
I have to say, I really like this post.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:18 am
Jen
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:30 am
DoLLz
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ุขย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. ุขย If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. ุขย And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
[quote]What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ุขย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.[/quote]
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. ุขย If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. ุขย And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:43 pm
terab
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. ย We answered. ย I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. ย Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? ย Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. ย What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. ย We answered. ย I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. ย Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? ย Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. ย What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:45 pm
Intuitouch
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.Quote:It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. ุขย Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. ุขย I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? ุขย She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. ุขย Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. ุขย
As for what is or isn't "fair". ุขย
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. ุขย
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. ุขย Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. ุขย If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. ุขย
[quote]I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.[/quote]However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.[quote]It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. ุขย Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?[/quote]
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. ุขย I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? ุขย She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. ุขย Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. ุขย
As for what is or isn't "fair". ุขย
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. ุขย
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. ุขย Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. ุขย If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. ุขย
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:27 pm
RelaxandRejuvenate
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:18 am
Intuitouch
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. ุขย Thank you.
Quote:We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).This sounds very reasonable. ุขย Am I to assume the etc means advertising?Quote:I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.This does not sound reasonable to me. ุขย I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. ุขย One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. ุขย She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. ุขย I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. ุขย I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย Quote:For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? ุขย What would you change? ุขย
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย
IMO, that is fair.
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. ุขย Thank you.
[quote]We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).[/quote]This sounds very reasonable. ุขย Am I to assume the etc means advertising?[quote]I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.[/quote]This does not sound reasonable to me. ุขย I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. ุขย One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. ุขย She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. ุขย I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. ุขย I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย [quote]For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? ุขย What would you change? ุขย [/quote]
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย
IMO, that is fair.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:48 am
Masthera
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I also agree with the rent or % split. ย Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. ย What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. ย I agree with Seforum.xxxg. ย In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. ย This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. ย Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. ย What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? ย Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. ย I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. ย ย Quote:Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. ย This sounds fair also. ย Might be a good consideration. ย But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. ย She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
I also agree with the rent or % split. ย Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. ย What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. ย I agree with Seforum.xxxg. ย In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. ย This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. ย Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. ย What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? ย Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. ย I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. ย ย [quote]Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. [/quote] ย This sounds fair also. ย Might be a good consideration. ย But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. ย She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:35 am
berkana
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
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I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... ย not both. ย I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto? ย
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... ย not both. ย I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto? ย
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:23 pm
gutehands
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
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I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:37 pm
terab
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
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Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? ย I don't like the deal. ย Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. ย I think she should not cut herself that short. ย All he is doing is sending her the referral. ย Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. ย When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? ย (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. ย Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. ย Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. ย Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. ย I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. ย My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent. ย
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? ย I don't like the deal. ย Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. ย I think she should not cut herself that short. ย All he is doing is sending her the referral. ย Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. ย When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? ย (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. ย Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. ย Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. ย Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. ย I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. ย My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent. ย
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:59 pm
Jen
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Gaspen
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Kneadfulthings
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. ย Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. ย Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. ย They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the set up ย and maintaining of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. ย They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. ย Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. ย That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. ย In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. ย They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. ย Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. ย Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. ย They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the [b] set up ย [/b]and [i] maintaining [/i] of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. ย They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. ย Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. ย That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. ย In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. ย They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:51 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
[quote]Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:46 am
RelaxandRejuvenate
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
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I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:42 am
Citychiro
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. ย I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. ย I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:29 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:09 am
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Topic review - Fair Deal?
Author
Message
Jen
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ย ;)Be well,Jen
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ย ;)Be well,Jen
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:55 am
gutehands
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
*applause*
*applause*
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:08 am
Intuitouch
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
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Quote:Thanks for all of your input. ุขย It has been helpful.You are welcome. ุขย It is nice to have someone actually ask.Quote:The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? ุขย Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. ุขย Quote:As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ุขย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? ุขย My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. ุขย But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. ุขย
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. ุขย However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. ุขย Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. ุขย You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. ุขย My hope is you will consider what we've shared. ุขย Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
[quote]Thanks for all of your input. ุขย It has been helpful.[/quote]You are welcome. ุขย It is nice to have someone actually ask.[quote]The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.[/quote]I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? ุขย Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. ุขย [quote]As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ุขย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".[/quote]
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? ุขย My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. ุขย But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. ุขย
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. ุขย However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. ุขย Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. ุขย You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. ุขย My hope is you will consider what we've shared. ุขย Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:37 am
StressSolutions
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. ย It gives me something to strive for! ย Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: ย $300 rent fair, YES. ย $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. ย I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. ย mick
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. ย It gives me something to strive for! ย Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: ย $300 rent fair, YES. ย $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. ย I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. ย mick
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:28 pm
superspagirl
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. :) What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:48 pm
Citychiro
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Thanks for all of your input. ย It has been helpful. ย The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. ย As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Thanks for all of your input. ย It has been helpful. ย The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. ย As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. ย Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:20 am
Texas-gal
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย IMO, that is fair.
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... ุขย citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. ุขย They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
[quote]For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย IMO, that is fair.[/quote]
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... ุขย citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. ุขย They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:24 am
Texas-gal
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I have to say, I really like this post.
[quote]I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.[/quote]
I have to say, I really like this post.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:18 am
Jen
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:30 am
DoLLz
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Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ุขย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. ุขย If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. ุขย And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
[quote]What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ุขย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.[/quote]
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. ุขย If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. ุขย And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:43 pm
terab
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. ย We answered. ย I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. ย Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? ย Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. ย What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. ย We answered. ย I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. ย Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? ย Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. ย What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. ย Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:45 pm
Intuitouch
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.Quote:It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. ุขย Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. ุขย I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? ุขย She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. ุขย Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. ุขย
As for what is or isn't "fair". ุขย
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. ุขย
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. ุขย Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. ุขย If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. ุขย
[quote]I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.[/quote]However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.[quote]It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. ุขย Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?[/quote]
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. ุขย I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? ุขย She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. ุขย Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. ุขย
As for what is or isn't "fair". ุขย
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. ุขย
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. ุขย Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. ุขย If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. ุขย Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. ุขย
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:27 pm
RelaxandRejuvenate
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:18 am
Intuitouch
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. ุขย Thank you.
Quote:We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).This sounds very reasonable. ุขย Am I to assume the etc means advertising?Quote:I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.This does not sound reasonable to me. ุขย I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. ุขย One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. ุขย She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. ุขย I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. ุขย I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย Quote:For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? ุขย What would you change? ุขย
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย
IMO, that is fair.
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. ุขย Thank you.
[quote]We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).[/quote]This sounds very reasonable. ุขย Am I to assume the etc means advertising?[quote]I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.[/quote]This does not sound reasonable to me. ุขย I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. ุขย One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. ุขย She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. ุขย I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. ุขย I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: ุขย If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. ุขย You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. ุขย If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. ุขย She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). ุขย You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. ุขย ุขย ุขย [quote]For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? ุขย What would you change? ุขย [/quote]
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. ุขย
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. ุขย I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). ุขย Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. ุขย
IMO, that is fair.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:48 am
Masthera
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I also agree with the rent or % split. ย Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. ย What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. ย I agree with Seforum.xxxg. ย In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. ย This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. ย Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. ย What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? ย Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. ย I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. ย ย Quote:Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. ย This sounds fair also. ย Might be a good consideration. ย But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. ย She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
I also agree with the rent or % split. ย Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. ย What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. ย I agree with Seforum.xxxg. ย In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. ย This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. ย Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. ย What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? ย Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. ย I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. ย ย [quote]Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. [/quote] ย This sounds fair also. ย Might be a good consideration. ย But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. ย She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:35 am
berkana
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... ย not both. ย I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto? ย
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... ย not both. ย I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto? ย
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:23 pm
gutehands
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:37 pm
terab
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? ย I don't like the deal. ย Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. ย I think she should not cut herself that short. ย All he is doing is sending her the referral. ย Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. ย When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? ย (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. ย Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. ย Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. ย Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. ย I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. ย My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent. ย
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? ย I don't like the deal. ย Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. ย I think she should not cut herself that short. ย All he is doing is sending her the referral. ย Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. ย When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? ย (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. ย Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. ย Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. ย Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. ย I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. ย My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent. ย
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:59 pm
Jen
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Gaspen
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Kneadfulthings
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. ย Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. ย Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. ย They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the set up ย and maintaining of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. ย They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. ย Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. ย That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. ย In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. ย They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. ย Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. ย Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. ย They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the [b] set up ย [/b]and [i] maintaining [/i] of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. ย They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. ย Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. ย That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. ย In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. ย They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:51 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Quote:Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
[quote]Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:46 am
RelaxandRejuvenate
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:42 am
Citychiro
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. ย I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. ย I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:29 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
ย
Post subject:ย
Re: Fair Deal?
ย
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:09 am
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- EMSpa_schedule:
Tomorrow's sneak peek: For Tuesday November 5, 2024, our attendants will be Ada
, Cici 
, Yoyo 
, Ivy and Christina 
Call 905-479-6668 for a great session!! - Endless Joy Spa:
[GRAND OPENING] 
Endless Joy Spa 
(155 East Beaver Creek Rd Unit #8, Richmond Hill) 416-731-856510am-2am, New First Day Young Slim Petite Chinese Vivi, Tall Slim Sexy Chinese Kelly, Sexy Chinese Coco, Young Sexy Chinese Abie, Young Sexy CBC Rachel. - Shangri-la Spa:
โโ
MakeIt Monday 
SL West your ultimate destination for luxury Asian massages
Two fab spots: Richmond Hill & Oakville. 
9 stunning Girls from China, HK, Japan & Korea โ 34D Suki, Cindy, 
Queen Selena, Kelly, Amber, Busty Echo, JPN Yui, RMT Miya & 
Jessica โ 
โโTable Shower special on 
Hit up 647-695-6354
or text to 
647-578-8169 160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, Richmond Hill 
Let the fun times roll, baby!
- Sunrise Health Centre:
Tiana & Noor are here Today! Call/Text: (647) 325-8086 
We have Hot & Sexy Girls Every Day. They all do Extra Services & are Very Open-Minded ~ Drop In Anytime - Walk-Ins Are Always Welcome! Unit 27, 10 East Wilmot Street, Richmond Hill - New Oriental Health Centre:
Happy, Nayla & New Girl Lily are in today~
Call 
Text: (647) 381-2688 Make Your Day Incredibly Delicious 
Our girls provide lots of service options & are Extremely Open-Minded 
We're Open 9am - 2am everyday! Drop in to Unit 26, 10 East Wilmot Street, Richmond Hill. - wonderspa:
Wonder spa [9421Jane st unit 127)Please 
4165000-800,if you need to find a comfortable... Wonder spa [9421Jane st unit 127)Please 4165000-800,if you need to find a comfortable place to revive your body come visit us.beautiful attendants AMY Mina Mimi seevice you relieve stresses.Amy is very sexy and long hair fridendly girl, Mimi is younge sexy girl excellent service make... - Newspring@:
Nu spring spa 
sexy hot Viennese and Latino girl working at Nu spring spa 416-669-8508 - Sparkling Spa:
Sexy Korean Massage Girl Summer is working at Sparkling Spa with Service Queen Zoe today. Real pictures of Summer & Zoe
Call or text to book appointment 
๏ธ
SPARKLING SPA๏ธ 
50 Lockridge Ave Unit 8 
Markham, ON L3R 8X4 (905) 604-8186 Spa Land Line (437) 446-6688 NEW Spa Cell Phone (West of Warden & 16th Ave) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY - Golden Sunshine Spa:
Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! Today
AlettaYoyoCarlyTiffanyTania Call us โ 905 - 265 - 2158 Your ultimate service awaits! - Jennyโs Spa:
JENNYโS SPA 5170 DUNDAS STREET WEST ETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4 ( 647-893-5196)Call or Text ( 437-888-3759)Call Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY GRAND OPENINGNEW GIRLS EVERYDAYEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโS SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS TWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY REAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS TODAYโs ROSTER INCLUDES: Rose - A sexy new addition to our lin - Moneylee:
All season wellness center :Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Doris ,New Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Baby ,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Yoyo ,Young girl Big breasted saucy naughty Ella ,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Sherry , address: #5-30 Rambler dr Brampton ,Ontario L6W 1E24376655510
๏ธ๏ธ
- Moneylee:
Full season wellness center: New Young girl Big-breasted big Big boobs big butts May, Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Vita ,Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Bobo, Young beautiful face sexy body and good deep massage maggie,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Mary. 2560 Shepard ave Mississauga unit 1 .4379857899 ๏ธ๏ธ
- Red Rose Spa:
We have 5 hot brown girls today LUCY, ASHA, MALIYA, SANA, ANGELINA, MEERA, NISHA, AMANDA, MIMI, ANGEL 2588 Birchmount 2 Invergordon 647-702-8800 Please visit for a great erotic massage
- Soul Relax Spa:
Looking for a relaxing escape? MeetIvyBrandyKimCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now โ 289 - 298 - 5662 Your ultimate relaxation awaits!
- Lulu_Villa_Spa:
Candy She is a Vietnamese๏ผ Face and body to die for. Her smile will make you melt. Sami Gorgeous Model Type CBC Vietnamese School Girl Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl647- 446-0886
- See You Health Center:
Natalie she is CBC/filipina mixed Petite school girlโจGFE, BBbj, DFK in her menu. Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl416-988-2950
- AliceSpa:
MONDAY at ๐๐๐๐๐ ๐ฆ๐ฃ๐, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ฒ-๐ฎ๐ต๐ด-๐ฌ๐ด๐ต๐ด. 32 Sexy Young Girls Today at Alice Spa, : LALA,[/color 19Yrs young & beautiful petite, pretty, baby faced Japanese, 5โ2โ 90Lbs B Cup, bbbj, rim. Lala is energetic, fresh, beautiful & innocent, makes your heart beat. Beauty and youth can conquer everything. Highly recommended
SUKI, baby face student, nice all natural C Cups, short 5โ2โ, sexy ass, - bnwellness_wilson:
We have 4 young beautiful girls are working today, young cute Yuki 30โs open mind slime and young fun Selina with curves body 30โs , pretty GFE Ella and sexy Coco are providing deep tissue and sensual massage, pls call 416-3985777 book appointment and walk in always welcome, back entrance and parking available, 350 Wilson Ave North York
- AmoreSpaEtobicoke:
AMORE SPA 127 Westmore Drive, Unit 106C Etobicoke, ON M9V 3Y6 โ 437-688-2407 โ This is the official schedule for AMORE SPA: (Korean Ashley hasn't been here for AGES. The old confused imposter doesn't realize he has lost another customer, and continues to post errors and incorrect pics). Monday at AMORE SPA: CHERRY(10AM-11pm) & *New Spinner LALA CHERRY is a proven superstar, Slim Asian
- Mephistopheles:
Where is milf mimi working, a little crazy lady.
- ASPA:
๐ ๐ข๐ก๐๐๐ฌ ๐๐ง ๐ ๐๐๐: EMMA and Best Massage RACHEL.
๐ ๐๐๐, 28 South Unionville Ave, Unit 5, Markham. ๐๐ฎ๐น๐น ๐ฒ๐ฐ๐ณ-๐ณ๐ฎ๐ต-๐ฒ๐ฒ๐ฌ๐ฒ ๐ผ๐ฟ ๐๐ฒ๐
๐ ๐ฒ๐ฐ๐ณ-๐ด๐ฏ๐ต-๐ฑ๐ต๐ฒ๐ฒ EMMA is 1.64Cm. and weighs 52Kg. Emma is sweet and elegant, has very good communication & massage, and her services will make your visit enjoyable. RACHEL is slim and attractive - Endless Joy Spa:
[GRAND OPENING] Endless Joy Spa (155 East Beaver Creek Rd Unit #8, Richmond Hill) 416-731-856510am-2am, New First Day Young Slim Petite Chinese Vivi, Tall Slim Sexy Chinese Kelly, Sexy Chinese Coco, Young Sexy Chinese Abie, Young Sexy CBC Rachel.
- ForeverWarden:
Monday at
๐๐๐ก๐๐ฅ๐๐ก ๐ข๐๐
2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ฒ-๐ด๐ฌ๐ฌ-๐ณ๐ด๐ด๐ณ: Bella, Lisa & Ruby. Bella is around 5โ3โ with a thin to medium build, C Cups, and a pleasing personality. She can offer dfk, bbbj and cfs as well as a good massage experience. Lisa is a young, slim & very beautiful Vietnamese beauty with a nice body, nice boobs, nice massage, incredible services. - HolidaySpa:
Monday at
๐๐ธ๐ต๐ฒ๐ญ๐ช๐ ๐ข๐น๐ช3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ณ-๐ฎ๐ฐ๐ณ-๐ญ๐ญ๐ต๐ตAMT, CANDY & CINDY AMY is an attractive young lady with larger breasts and a nice bottom. She has outstanding oral skills, and is very popular. Donโt miss out on her special skills! CANDY is a slim and attractive Asian Attendant with nice boobs, slim waist & a booty loverโs ass. Candy has a full range of services. - Annie Spa:
ANNIE SPA 7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLE SCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6 (647) 891-9688 (416) 291-8879 (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY NEW MANAGEMENTNEW GIRLS GORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAYโs ROSTER INCLUDES: Summer has nice sexy body, and nice breasts. She can give very good massage and fun service. Very sexy, and so friendly. Beautiful girl with great massage skills and willing to give you a happy fun session multiple times if you
- EMSpa_schedule:
Here's a sneak peek of the schedule: For Monday November 4, 2024, our attendants will be Mia, Summer , Sandy , Vicky and Ivy . Sandy is joining us on Mondays now!
- Endless Joy Spa:
[GRAND OPENING] Endless Joy Spa (155 East Beaver Creek Rd Unit #8, Richmond Hill) 416-731-856510am-2am, NEW FIRST DAY (Nov 4) Young Slim petite Chinese Vivi (Pics in my ad)
- Shangri-la Spa:
Happy Sunday!!โShangri-la Spa & SL Westโ your best destination for luxury Asian massages in GTA Two fab spots: Richmond Hill & Oakville. 9 stunning Girls from China, Hong Kong, Japan & Korea โ Coco, Yoyo, Tina, Eva, JPN Yui, Suki, 36D busty Julie, Sophia & Tiffany โ ready to spoil you silly Table Shower special on now! Summon Us: 647-695-6354 or 647-578-8169 Let the fun times roll, baby!
- Anonymous Mask:
insurance
- starartwork:
Where does Indian SARIKA of Lily Spa work now?
- Sparkling Spa:
๏ธSPARKLING SPA๏ธ 50 Lockridge Ave Unit 8 Markham, ON L3R 8X4 (905) 604-8186 Spa Land Line (437) 446-6688 NEW Spa Cell Phone (West of Warden & 16th Ave) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY NEW MANAGEMENTNEW GIRLSSUPERSTAR SERVICE QUEENS AVAILABLE AT SPARKLING SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS SEXY NEW YOUNG GIRLS ALWAYS WORKING - Todayโs Schedule isโฆ Zoe - Stunning Tall Taiwanese Service Queen with Endless Passion and Sensuality w
- Moneylee:
All season wellness center : Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Midi,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament Lala,Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Helen , Young beautiful face sexy body and good deep massage Maggie , Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Sherry,
address: #5-30 Rambler dr Brampton ,Ontario L6W 1E24376655510 ๏ธ๏ธ - Moneylee:
Full season wellness center: young girl pretty face nice figure Thai deep massage Anika , Student pretty face nice figure Thai deep massage Michelle,Young girl Big breasted saucy naughty Ella, Taiwan girl DD Boobs Thai deep massage lily,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Mary. 2560 Shepard ave Mississauga unit 1 .4379857899๏ธ๏ธ
- Jennyโs Spa:
JENNYโS SPA 5170 DUNDAS STREET WEST ETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4 ( 647-893-5196)Call or Text ( 437-888-3759)Call Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY GRAND OPENINGNEW GIRLS EVERYDAYEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโS SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS TWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY REAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS TODAYโs ROSTER INCLUDES: Jenny - An exotic tall and slim Vietn
- wonderspa:
Open Sunday Wonder spa(9421Jane st unit127)416-5000-800.very big boost Joey and Sunny working today,Joey is sexy girl ,she can provide very good massage with sensual touch, nice Sunny can provide deep tissue massage,she got a lot experience,come see them today,welcome to walk in
much try
- AliceSpa:
SUNDAY at ๐๐๐๐๐ ๐ฆ๐ฃ๐, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ฒ-๐ฎ๐ต๐ด-๐ฌ๐ด๐ต๐ด:[/color] Hot Busty BLONDE Girl today at Alice Spa: ELLA (12pm-9pm): is a small & curvy white young girl from Romania, super super busty EE Cups, blue eyes, blond hair, ok services, bbbJ cfs. Please call before booking her due to high demand. Alice Spa has DEBIT PAYMENT available now! Plenty of free parking. Front and back entrance. ALICE SPA, 4915 Steeles Ave. E,
- xodyhard:
Anyone know tracy from forever spa,does anyone where she working aside in forever spa?
- Golden Sunshine Spa:
Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! TodayYoYoBrandyLyndaHellen Call us โ 905 - 265 - 2158 Your ultimate service awaits!
- ASPA:
๐ฆ๐จ๐ก๐๐๐ฌ ๐๐ง ๐ ๐ฆ๐ฃ๐: EMMA and Best Massage RACHEL.[/color]๐ ๐๐๐, 28 South Unionville Ave, Unit 5, Markham. ๐๐ฎ๐น๐น ๐ฒ๐ฐ๐ณ-๐ณ๐ฎ๐ต-๐ฒ๐ฒ๐ฌ๐ฒ ๐ผ๐ฟ ๐๐ฒ๐
๐ ๐ฒ๐ฐ๐ณ-๐ด๐ฏ๐ต-๐ฑ๐ต๐ฒ๐ฒ EMMA is 1.64Cm. and weighs 52Kg. Emma is sweet and elegant, has very good communication & massage, and her services will make your visit enjoyable. RACHEL is a slim and attractive
- ForeverWarden:
Sunday at๐๐๐ก๐๐ฅ๐๐ก ๐ข๐๐2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough ๐ฐ๐ญ๐ฒ-๐ด๐ฌ๐ฌ-๐ณ๐ด๐ด๐ณ: Jennifer & Mia. Jennifer is a tall, slim & pretty Asian babe with natural melons and eraser nipples. She is very open minded. Come and give her a try, and youโll be sure to come back for more. Mia is a Caribbean service queen temptress with incredible curves & very friendly attitude. She is able to bbbj
- HolidaySpa:
Sunday at๐๐ธ๐ต๐ฒ๐ญ๐ช๐ ๐ข๐น๐ช3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ณ-๐ฎ๐ฐ๐ณ-๐ญ๐ญ๐ต๐ตAmy & Suki. AMY is an attractive young lady with larger breasts and a nice bottom. She has outstanding oral skills, and is very popular. Donโt miss out on her special skills SUKI is a sexy lady, short with big boobs, medium massage & nice services. HOLIDAY SPA
- Soul Relax Spa:
Looking for a relaxing escape? MeetRebeccaTiffanyCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now โ 289 - 298 - 5662 Your ultimate relaxation awaits!
- Lulu1980:
Phoenix blossom Spa
table shower body scrub5124 Dundas W Etobicoke 416-817-3366 Nice girl Luna is joining. She can provide a very good massage with sensual touch. She knows how to take direction and please a man. Jessica can provide deep Thai massage. She takes directions very well. She has many assets and knows how to use them. Come see her today.Welcome to walk in or make an appointment at any time. Plenty of parking space at the back door - Red Rose Spa:
We have 13 hot brown girls today ASHA, MALIYA, PREET, KIRAN, ANNA, NISHA, SALMA, SABHA 2588 Birchmount 2 Invergordon 647-702-8800 Please visit for a great erotic massage
- Applover:
This chat is something. So no one believes Markkk
- Applover:
This chat is something
- SugarLoveSpa:
Sunday at
โ๐ฆ๐จ๐๐๐ฅ ๐๐ข๐ฉ๐ ๐ฆ๐ฃ๐โ 
: ANA, CARA & JOLIE. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ANA is a young, short and sweet lady, 5โ1 & 105 Lbs, very tight, with a small to medium booty. Ana is a versatile honey who provides great massage, & can accommodate your needs. CARA is a young & attractive Chinese attendant, 5โ3โ & 100 pounds with natural C Cup big boobs, very friendly - Annie Spa:
ANNIE SPA 7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLE SCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6 (647) 891-9688 (416) 291-8879 (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY NEW MANAGEMENTNEW GIRLS GORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAYโs ROSTER INCLUDES: HelenBrand new very young university student from Hong Kong. Great massage skills with a wild flirtatious side willing to tease and please to bring you to satisfaction. Perky natural 34C breasts perfect for kissing and body slide
- hiyamickey:
Reinella wellness will have 6 girls working, young petite Japanese girl Amanda, Queenie, Lucky, Jenny, Vanessa, Ella @6262 hwy7 unit #1 Vaughan๏ผ905-851-4888
- SugarLoveSpa:
Monday at โ๐ฆ๐จ๐๐๐ฅ ๐๐ข๐ฉ๐ ๐ฆ๐ฃ๐โ : ELLA & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ON โ ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ณ-๐ฏ๐ฒ๐ฑ-๐ฎ๐ฒ๐ด๐ด โ ELLA is a lovely Thai sweetheart, 5โ1โ with C Cups, smooth skin and a very pleasing attitude. TIFFANY is an amazing slim petite doll with natural 34C melons, slim waist, & a cute little 33โ booty. Tiffany has incredible bbbj skills, tastes as sweet as honey
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