Cameron aka Ashley
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Fair Deal?
I have to say, I really like this post.
I have to say, I really like this post.
pierced_parrot
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Fair Deal?
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
Thanks for all of your input. It has been helpful. The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
shergal farkey
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Fair Deal?
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around.
What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around.
What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.~<(8^D) Party!
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Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. It gives me something to strive for! Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: $300 rent fair, YES. $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. mick
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Topic review - Fair Deal?
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Jen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ;)Be well,Jen
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ;)Be well,Jen
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:55 am
gutehands
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
*applause*
*applause*
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:08 am
Intuitouch
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:Thanks for all of your input. آ It has been helpful.You are welcome. آ It is nice to have someone actually ask.Quote:The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? آ Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. آ Quote:As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. آ Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? آ My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. آ But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. آ
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. آ However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. آ Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. آ You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. آ My hope is you will consider what we've shared. آ Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
[quote]Thanks for all of your input. آ It has been helpful.[/quote]You are welcome. آ It is nice to have someone actually ask.[quote]The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.[/quote]I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? آ Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. آ [quote]As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. آ Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".[/quote]
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? آ My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. آ But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. آ
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. آ However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. آ Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. آ You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. آ My hope is you will consider what we've shared. آ Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:37 am
StressSolutions
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. It gives me something to strive for! Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: $300 rent fair, YES. $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. mick
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. It gives me something to strive for! Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: $300 rent fair, YES. $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. mick
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:28 pm
superspagirl
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. :) What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:48 pm
Citychiro
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Thanks for all of your input. It has been helpful. The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Thanks for all of your input. It has been helpful. The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:20 am
Texas-gal
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ IMO, that is fair.
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... آ citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. آ They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
[quote]For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ IMO, that is fair.[/quote]
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... آ citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. آ They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:24 am
Texas-gal
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I have to say, I really like this post.
[quote]I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.[/quote]
I have to say, I really like this post.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:18 am
Jen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:30 am
DoLLz
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. آ Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. آ If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. آ And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
[quote]What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. آ Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.[/quote]
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. آ If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. آ And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:43 pm
terab
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. We answered. I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. We answered. I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:45 pm
Intuitouch
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.Quote:It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. آ Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. آ I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. آ Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? آ She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. آ Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. آ
As for what is or isn't "fair". آ
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. آ
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. آ Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. آ If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. آ Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. آ
[quote]I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.[/quote]However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.[quote]It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. آ Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?[/quote]
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. آ I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. آ Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? آ She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. آ Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. آ
As for what is or isn't "fair". آ
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. آ
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. آ Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. آ If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. آ Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. آ
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:27 pm
RelaxandRejuvenate
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:18 am
Intuitouch
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. آ Thank you.
Quote:We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).This sounds very reasonable. آ Am I to assume the etc means advertising?Quote:I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.This does not sound reasonable to me. آ I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. آ One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. آ She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. آ I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. آ I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ Quote:For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? آ What would you change? آ
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ
IMO, that is fair.
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. آ Thank you.
[quote]We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).[/quote]This sounds very reasonable. آ Am I to assume the etc means advertising?[quote]I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.[/quote]This does not sound reasonable to me. آ I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. آ One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. آ She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. آ I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. آ I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ [quote]For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? آ What would you change? آ [/quote]
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ
IMO, that is fair.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:48 am
Masthera
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I also agree with the rent or % split. Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. I agree with Seforum.xxxg. In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. Quote:Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. This sounds fair also. Might be a good consideration. But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
I also agree with the rent or % split. Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. I agree with Seforum.xxxg. In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. [quote]Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. [/quote] This sounds fair also. Might be a good consideration. But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:35 am
berkana
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... not both. I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto?
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... not both. I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto?
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:23 pm
gutehands
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:37 pm
terab
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? I don't like the deal. Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. I think she should not cut herself that short. All he is doing is sending her the referral. Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent.
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? I don't like the deal. Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. I think she should not cut herself that short. All he is doing is sending her the referral. Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:59 pm
Jen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Gaspen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Kneadfulthings
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the set up and maintaining of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the [b] set up [/b]and [i] maintaining [/i] of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:51 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
[quote]Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:46 am
RelaxandRejuvenate
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:42 am
Citychiro
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:29 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:09 am
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Topic review - Fair Deal?
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Jen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ;)Be well,Jen
VERY well said, Intuitouch...all of it...good post/reply! ;)Be well,Jen
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:55 am
gutehands
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
*applause*
*applause*
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:08 am
Intuitouch
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:Thanks for all of your input. آ It has been helpful.You are welcome. آ It is nice to have someone actually ask.Quote:The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? آ Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. آ Quote:As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. آ Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? آ My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. آ But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. آ
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. آ However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. آ Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. آ You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. آ My hope is you will consider what we've shared. آ Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
[quote]Thanks for all of your input. آ It has been helpful.[/quote]You are welcome. آ It is nice to have someone actually ask.[quote]The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us.[/quote]I'm curious, will you mention this board and post to the MT so she can check out what we've suggested? آ Allow her the information in order to really work out a situation that is right for BOTH of you. آ [quote]As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. آ Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".[/quote]
I would be interested to know what the other "many factors to consider" are...and why they weren't considered when you choose the $300 figure for rent? آ My guess it is because you know you can make a whole lot more money from billing insurance for her work. آ But either she isn't supposed to know that or she isn't supposed to care. آ
Again, I'm not against anyone making income off of the MT. آ However, I am against someone making more money off of the MT than she herself makes doing the majority of the work while paying her less to do it.
Yes, it can be difficult to achieve balance and create a situation where everyone wins. آ Yet, the fact you posted here to ask our opinions suggests you were uncertain regarding the deal you offered the MT. آ You were looking for additional ideas and ways of looking at it. آ My hope is you will consider what we've shared. آ Good luck to both of you and I hope your practices are successful.
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:37 am
StressSolutions
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. It gives me something to strive for! Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: $300 rent fair, YES. $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. mick
Wow, there are sure a lot of smart people here adding to this and all posts. It gives me something to strive for! Goals are good, right?That said, the anwer to the original question is this: $300 rent fair, YES. $30/hr and $15/halfhour fair, NO. I'm curious as to how all this will pan out. mick
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:28 pm
superspagirl
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Citychiro, sounds like you are trying to do what is best all around. :) What if she paid rent and when you refer a client the MT gets her regular fee and you get whatever else insurance will pay. That way she is not losing out on her regular rate and it won't affect her ability to pay rent, and you are getting something for the referral. After all you are filing the insurance and not much more than that since she is providing everything else.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:48 pm
Citychiro
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Thanks for all of your input. It has been helpful. The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Thanks for all of your input. It has been helpful. The details of the deal will ultimately be negotiated between the MT and myself and in the end, it will only work if the situation is right for BOTH of us. As the business owner, I have to balance what is best for my patients, the MT and my business - and that can be a very difficult thing to acheive. Many of the responses here are from the MT perspective only (which is what I asked for!) but please, remember there are many factors to consider aside from your "bottom line".Thanks for your help.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:20 am
Texas-gal
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ IMO, that is fair.
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... آ citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. آ They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
[quote]For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ IMO, that is fair.[/quote]
I am liking this post too.
Hmmm... آ citychiro, these posts are along the lines of what I was thinking earlier, so I am hoping that along with your willingness to make changes, you'll note these posts more than once. آ They are important ones in my book and I wish I could have said it as good.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:24 am
Texas-gal
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I have to say, I really like this post.
[quote]I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.[/quote]
I have to say, I really like this post.
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:18 am
Jen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Good input by all...I get the feeling that the chiropractor doesn't plan on coming back and checking out the rest of our feedback to him after his second post though.Just a hunch I have (which I hope I'm wrong about). Regardless, this was a good topic to discuss amongst ourselves as it gives us some good information to "chew on" should we consider a similar setup for ourselves down the road. Be well,Jen
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:30 am
DoLLz
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. آ Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. آ If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. آ And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
[quote]What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. آ Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.[/quote]
I'd think that once or twice is already too many times. آ If I paid $30 the first few times, I wouldn't want to pay more the next times. آ And those next few times will probably be when the insurance won't cover the massage.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:43 pm
terab
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. We answered. I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
I certainly don't think we're frowning upon the chiro, he asked our opinion of if we thought it was fair. We answered. I for one, wouldn't work a side job while trying to build my practice. Why would I want to build business at another business for 1/2 the price while trying to start myown practice? Who even says she wants to have this set up. Maybe working on them one time at the reduced rate is ok but why try to build business somewhere when you'll be getting cut short on a regular basis by your "landlord".I'm not saying she shouldn't help take care of a client by charging a cheaper rate, or that she should say no way, I'm not going to do that. What I am saying is that he shouldn't ask her to pay rent and then ask her to work on his clients for 1/2 her normal rate....on a continual basis. Maybe once, or twice....but that's it.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:45 pm
Intuitouch
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.Quote:It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. آ Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. آ I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. آ Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? آ She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. آ Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. آ
As for what is or isn't "fair". آ
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. آ
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. آ Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. آ If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. آ Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. آ
[quote]I think it helps to look at this slightly differently. A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudes.On her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.[/quote]However, along these lines your scenario doesn't take into account that the referrals she is seeing in her rented space will be using equipment and supplies that she is expected to supply and pay for herself.[quote]It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. آ Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?[/quote]
I'm not saying it is fair or unfair that the chiro wants to get as big a piece of the pie as he can get or that acting as both landlord or day spa is wrong or unfair. آ I'm suggesting it is in the best interest of the MT to limit what the chiro can make off of her on a monthly basis. آ Why should the MT not make the bulk of the money? آ She is the person doing the hard work, taking the time to work with each patient. آ Reducing her fee certainly doesn't reward her for her hard work and time. آ
As for what is or isn't "fair". آ
What I don't think is "fair" is the idea that he is offering to pay her a reduced rate for his referrals, then bill insurance and collect 50% or better of the fee charged simply because it is insurance work. آ
The biggest expense in insurance billing is having the right person checking the patients insurance policy to know whether massage is covered, keeping track of it and making certain the insurance company is paying the claims on a timely basis -- which has nothing to do with the MT -- but rather the office staff the chiro has hired to perform this duty. آ Most offices file claims electronically in bulk, either in-house or through a service, the cost involved in this is probably 10% - 15% of the monthly amount billed. آ If he were to track what the actual expense is of filing massage claims it is probably less than that on a monthly basis. آ Why should he be making more off of her work than she is?
IMO, as far as his overhead needs these should be met with what he is charging in rent. آ
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:27 pm
RelaxandRejuvenate
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
I think it helps to look at this slightly differently.A massage therapist has her own space, on which she pays rent. Her clients, her overhead. Risk, reward, all the usual buisness platitudesOn her slow days or downtime, she is on-call at the day spa next door and she can pop over when it suits her schedule. The day spa pays 50% of the $60 rate. Therapist has no marketing costs, no other expenses.That sounds like a good deal, and it not too different than what many therapists do to make ends meet.It seems to me our chiro friend is being frowned upon because he is acting as the both landlord and day spa owner in the above scenario. It does not seem "fair" that one party makes money two ways off the same person.Is this less "fair" than two different parties making money different ways off the same therapist?
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:18 am
Intuitouch
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. آ Thank you.
Quote:We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).This sounds very reasonable. آ Am I to assume the etc means advertising?Quote:I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.This does not sound reasonable to me. آ I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. آ One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. آ She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. آ I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. آ I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ Quote:For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? آ What would you change? آ
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ
IMO, that is fair.
Citychiro, I appreciate your willingness to ask. آ Thank you.
[quote]We have agreed to a monthly rent of $300 (she provides table, linens, oils, music etc).[/quote]This sounds very reasonable. آ Am I to assume the etc means advertising?[quote]I have also asked if she is interested in treating some of my patients (when her schedule allows) for a flat fee of $30/hour or $15 per 30 min.[/quote]This does not sound reasonable to me. آ I believe to be fair, the patients should be expected to pay her regular rates, especially if you are filing for insurance payment. آ One of my concerns is that in filing insurance you are most likely filing for the full billable amount that insurance will pay in your area -- reasonable and customary -- and receiving payment for that amount. آ She, on the otherhand, is doing the bulk of the work and most likely receiving 50% or less of what is being billed [b]plus paying you rent on top of it[b]. آ I agree with Gutehands that it seems to be a scale of diminshing returns for her, especially if she starts to see more of your patients and less of her clientele. آ I also agree with Terab about the volume, will she have to work a reduced fee each time your referral sees her?For example: آ If R/C in your area allows $65 billed for massage. آ You will make 54% or $35 on the referral in addition to the $300 rent. آ If the MT works on 12 of your patients in a month billing at $65/session. آ She will have made $360 on those 12 referrals (basically covered her rent). آ You will have made $420 plus her $300 rent for a total of $720 paid to you. آ آ آ [quote]For all the MTs out there, how does this sound? آ What would you change? آ [/quote]
If I were the MT I would want a cap on the monthly amount. آ
She would pay you $300/month to rent the space plus you would make a perceneforum.xxxe (30% - 40%) of the billable massage fee's until the monthly cap is met. آ I think a $600 cap is reasonable (doubles her rent). آ Paying you 40% of the billable massage she would have to work on 12.5 referrals each month or about 3 referrals a week in order to reach that cap. آ
IMO, that is fair.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:48 am
Masthera
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I also agree with the rent or % split. Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. I agree with Seforum.xxxg. In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. Quote:Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. This sounds fair also. Might be a good consideration. But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
I also agree with the rent or % split. Having both seems confusing on who's responsibilites are what. What would she be getting for her %?Also, billing insurance does complicate things. I agree with Seforum.xxxg. In my experience, persons with insurance coverage, on average, are more likely to take advaneforum.xxxe and no show or cancel with hardly any notice. This is potentially an issue that you and the therapist may not want to deal with. Especially if she has paying clients that could have taken the appointment. What about when you lose out on getting paid for PI or MVA cases? Will you be willing to absorb the loss?I get paid the same regardless of what the insurance pays. I would not be willing to take a loss if the insurance doesn't pay. [quote]Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides. [/quote] This sounds fair also. Might be a good consideration. But, she would be losing her tax deduction of rent, which is one thing I don't like about being an IC. She might not want to lose that.I would look at the options and opinions listed here, as well as your own, and come up with a Pro/Con list and see what mutual agreement you can come up with.Hopefully we have all been of some help to you.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:35 am
berkana
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... not both. I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto?
I have to side with the other therapists who say rent OR split... not both. I am in a situation where I send many of my clients (who my advertising $$$'s &/or client referals) to the Chiro's in my office. They benefit from my referals as much as I benefit from theirs.I am also curious, when you state that you will be billing insurance for your patients, and paying the MT a set fee for these bookings, will it be mostly L&I and auto?
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:23 pm
gutehands
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you started with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
I agree with Terab about the volume issue. When I started on staff with a chiro, he had 8 clients left on book for massage. Within 6 months I had constant full book and within a year an overflow into night hours, requiring a second therapist on board...so when would your MT be able to use the office for her clients? She'd be paying rent from your reduced rate. You would be getting her rent, and insurance reimbursement. Seems a scale of diminshing returns for her, as her business with you increases...also a big chance for early burn out.Some people love having the availability of adjustment and massage in one trip. Some chiro's enjoy having their clients massaged pre or post adjustment. If she is fighting to get her own clients in, for her full fee, to make your rent, that is going to leave you with big holes in your scheduling...which means return visits at possibly inconvenient hours for your patients. I agree with those who say either rent or split. Perhaps if you [i]started[/i] with the rent and discount deal, with an agreement scaled to gradually decrease towards eliminating her rent as she took on more of your patients, that might be very beneficial for both sides.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:37 pm
terab
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? I don't like the deal. Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. I think she should not cut herself that short. All he is doing is sending her the referral. Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent.
Well, with what jen just stated above...if she refers her clients to the chiro, can she ask/tell him how much she'll let him charge her clients? I don't like the deal. Will she have to work on them for $30 every visit or just the first visit in from your referral?I know that he said he would pay her $30 reguardless of what insurance pays but who cares. I think she should not cut herself that short. All he is doing is sending her the referral. Of course that's great to get a referral but if she has to work on them every time for $30, it's not a fair rate. When she gets busy working on clients who are willing to pay $60-$75 for an hour, who would want to say yes to $30 for the hour? (which i assume is close to the going rate in chicago) Sounds to me like you should just make her an employee or an IC. Pay her a fee for each client and not worry about the rent part. Seems to me like you can't have a rent situation and also give her a reduced rate for some clients. Maybe I'm off here but I wouldn't like the offer. I don't have a problem with the $30 for an hour. My problem is $30 for an hour but she also has to pay rent.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:59 pm
Jen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Seems like the majority rules that the agreement the chiro wants to make with the MT is fair all the way around. If you've done your research, then suffice to say that you probably have.The only comment I would make is DON'T forget that it's a two-way street on advertising/bringing in clients for the other practitioner. Not only is the chiro advertising and referring his clients to the MT, but I believe that the MT is probably also advertising still and her clients could very well be referred to the chiro for treatment. I have had several clients who have replied they have never sought after chiro treatments or have even considered it as a possible relief solution when I have asked them if they ever considered seeking the advice of a chiropracter out to help relieve some of their discomfort. Once they realize this is a viable option, I then give them the business card of a great chiropractor I know which they readily accept.Because I feel that the advertising/referring is a 50/50 split, I believe the MT should get a little more perceneforum.xxxe than what's indicated in the current agreement. Be well,Jen
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Gaspen
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. The rent per month is an awesome deal. 'Tho I've not graduated yet, $300 in a downtown location (a prime location) would be great (too bad you're not offering it 11 months from now!).Seforum.xxx, however, does bring up some important issues with regards to the prime time for scheduling appointments; but even that is manageable with a 7-day window.Kneadful - while I understand your perspective as an owner, from the perspective of a practicioner, if the deal isn't in MY best interests, then no matter how much money you invest, it wouldn't make sense for me. Additionally, the money spent in overhead, rent, advertising, insurance, etc., would have been spent by the owner to begin with and would not solely be directed for my (or a MT) benefit.But CityChiro - I will also extend my thanks for being fair in your offer as well as your concern in offering as fair a deal as possible. I hope I'll be as lucky when I'm job hunting.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:09 pm
Kneadfulthings
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the set up and maintaining of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Just for the fact alone that you care enough to research this as much as you have to make sure you are fair is something to be applauded. Thank you for the respect.As a business owner that both sub-lets and has IC's, your offer is very fair. Most IC's only look at what is being charged for the service compared to what they are being paid. They tend to forget how much overhead is involved in the [b] set up [/b]and [i] maintaining [/i] of a large practice. Chances are high that the MT would not be able to provide the same ammenities on their own...hence why they need to rent from you in the first place. They are able to offer a portion of your ammenities at a fraction of the cost and with little or no financial risk which is normally associated with start up. As the owner of the practice, you are paying for the advertising to attract the clients you would be passing on to the MT. Advertising is an investment that involves the risk of no returned interest. That is a large consideration in the amount of commision that you deserve as the owner. In other words, the therapist took no risk in gaining that client from you. They just had to be there to provide the service.Thanks again for the respect you showed in your interest in keeping it fair!
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:51 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Quote:Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
[quote]Seforum.xxxgnant, As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification.
That would still be good, but there are certain "prime times" that clients like to schedule during. For me, they're usually between 9am - 11am, and 3pm - 6pm. I probably wouldn't schedule insurance patients at these times, because the cash patients like to schedule, and the therapist would make more money from cash patients. I also uphold a cancellation policy, and have found that when people are only coming in because their insurance is billed have a tendency to no-show. Don't be surprised if she wants to enforce a cancellation policy, billing the patient for the time that another patient / her own clients could have scheduled.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:46 am
RelaxandRejuvenate
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
I think it is more than fair, especially if you handle the insurance.You are filing down time - exactly what an independent therapist needs. Just like flying off-peak times on an airline and other time constrained businesses, a discount is applied.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:42 am
Citychiro
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Seforum.xxxgnant, You are correct, I would bill insurance for the massage services she provided for my patients and pay her the fee regardless of whether or not I am reimbursed. As for scheduling the patients, I have asked that she provide massage services to my patients within seven days of notification. I felt this would be the best situation for me ( I can offer massage services from a licensed professional), the therapist (she can build her practice and make some money from my patients on the side) and patients (since most will be able to use their insurance benefits).
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:29 am
Seforum.xxxgnant
Post subject:
Re: Fair Deal?
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Personally, I'd jump on this arrangement in a heartbeat. Since she has her own clientele, she'll basically just be renting space from you, and $300/month is what I was paying down here in southeast texas in a chiro office that had little to no patients coming in. I was expected to supply all my equipment and launder my own linens. That's fair for both of you.For sending her clients, as long as you're not really booking ahead of time, and you are working around her down-time if she doesn't have a client at that time, I see no problem with that payment structure. You said she has a small private practice, that means there are times she won't be busy. I'm assuming you bill insurance for the patient and pay the therapist out of your own pocket, risking whether or not the insurance will pay you back. That's no risk for the therapist; they get paid whether you do or not. That would allow her to build her practice as well as yours. I personally don't see a problem with it.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:09 am
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- Lilyspa1:
Lily Spa :
Thursday Schedule 
Sana 23, , Punjabi girl , very pretty 36 DDD 
GFE 
Elena ( Latino ) Big Nature Boobs & SuSu ( Asian )Slim , 
Porn Service 
Duo ,
6475318288 - Red_Pearl_Spa:
❤Today !! At 4385 Sheppard Avenue east, unit
❣Thursday,
Jenny, 
slim body, tall and pretty, here for therapeutic treatment with amazing finish+❤ Tammy, full body treatment !❣
647 352-1588 - gold__rose__spa:
🏵1536 Warden Avenue Thursday, ♥ Michelle for traditional style treatment and quality services., newly toned body, strong, does very firm treatment, pleasant personality
647 346-8086 - Withme_Spa:
4386 Sheppard Ave east Thursday ❣❤ Eva, 
average height build, nice legs, long hair. Pretty. Medium treatment and excellent service Lucy, ❤❣beautiful, dark hair to shoulder, tall and slim but busty, very relaxing treatment, over the top finish. ❣❤ Yoyo, medium height and sexy build with shapely legs and ass. friendly, very good treatment and finish Crystal, 
average height, slim build, very pretty, white skin, medium treatment, very smooth, choice finish 
416 297-7488 - miltonjohn:
burlington
- Soul Relax Spa:
Looking for a relaxing escape? 
Click Here Meet
LunaValentinaKellyCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now ☎ 289 - 298 - 5662 Your ultimate relaxation awaits! - Moneylee:
All season wellness center: Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Midi,Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Tina ,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Cindy ,Student big boobs buttocks Vicky, Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Sherry ,
address: #5-30 Rambler dr Brampton ,Ontario L6W 1E24376655510 
️️
- Moneylee:
Full season wellness center: young girl pretty face nice figure Thai deep massage Vivian , pretty face nice figure Thai deep massage Yuki ,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Anjoo ,Young girl Big breasted saucy naughty Ella,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Mary. 2560 Shepard ave Mississauga unit 1 .4379857899️️
- DareDevil:
ARIA WELLNESS
ADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, RICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 (PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) TODAY'S Schedule! Loaded lineup with Young Beautiful Girls : Gorgeous Candy, new girl Lina, Magical Mia and Work out🏋
Babe Amy! BUY 10 HOURS (GET 11 HOURS) **TODAY'S PICK OF THE DAY IS 
CANDY ** - Golden Sunshine Spa:
Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! Click Here TodayCassyTinaIsabellaTaniaBella Call us ☎ 905 - 265 - 2158 Your ultimate service awaits!
- Giggle Guru:
♀
Terrific Thursday Ultimate destination for Asian massages
Two fab spots: SL Richmond Hill & SL West Oakville Your passport to paradise with 9 enchanting girls fr China, HK — 
Tiffany, Joey, Julie, Aaliyah, Coco, Yui, Tina, Michelle & New 34D Jasmine—— ready to pamper you
Ring us 
647-695-6354 or text us 
647-578-8169 160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, RichmondHill 
Where Eastern charm meets Western comfort - your bliss awaits
- wilson holistic centre:
Young girl Linna working at 535 Evans Ave 416-531-6969
- Jenny’s Spa:
JENNY’S SPA 5170 DUNDAS STREET WEST 
ETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4 ( 647-893-5196)Call or Text ( 437-888-3759)Call Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY GRAND OPENINGNEW GIRLS EVERYDAYEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNY’S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS
TWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY REAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS Limited Time Special Promotion 30 Minutes Nude Massage w - Annie Spa:
ANNIE SPA 7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLE SCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6 (647) 891-9688 (416) 291-8879 (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY NEW MANAGEMENTNEW GIRLS GORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAY’s ROSTER INCLUDES: BoboAn alluring and skilled new massage girl with an elegant presence and a warm, inviting aura. Her striking figure, accentuated by her graceful posture and her massive 36DD breasts, immediately puts clients at ease. With a s
- wonderspa:
welcome to wonder spa416-5000-800,L6a4H8，open10 to10.on Thursday ,Ensuit shower available 
beautiful Jessica come back,deep tissue to relax massage and nice body slidesunny very good looking,big breasted sweet sensual touch really popular 
long hair very young Lily ,friendly smile,back walk,hot stone,amazing ending,must try - Golden Flower Spa:
- BlueXado Therapy & Spa:
BlueXado – 1102 Centre St, Thornhill 416 357 9797 | 416 678 8668 JOJO (10–1AM) | CICI (10–1AM) | MY LINH (12–1AM) 
Book Now - Pink Flower Spa:
- AliceSpa:
THURSDAY at 𝗔𝗟𝗜𝗖𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔.4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough 𝟰𝟭𝟲-𝟮𝟵𝟴-𝟬𝟴𝟵𝟴. 3 girls here today at ALICE SPA. Open 10am to 9pm: AMY (10am-9pm) is a young, petite short & slim Taiwanese, former dance instructor, firm natural B Cups, pretty face, firm natural titis, super play good, bbbj, cim, rim, dfk, all services. KITTY (12pm-9pm) is a new Korean girl, super busty, small body
- HollywoodSpa:
Thursday at
𝗛𝗢𝗟𝗟𝗬𝗪𝗢𝗢𝗗 𝗦𝗣𝗔, 4578 Yonge St, Unit 100, North York, ON: CINDY, JENNY & SISI. ☎416-222-5554☎ CINDY is a slim & pretty lady with long dark hair and a pleasing personality. JENNY is slim, attractive, with a tight frame and service with a smile. When you visit Hollywood Spa, you will be treated with tender care and your visit will be a fulfilling one. - lemon_tree:
a discreet entrance at 4155 Sheppard Avenue east, unit 201Thursday, ❣ Cici... small build, friendly and pretty,nice touch, with a lot of energy, service oriented, aka Coco Lisa, small build, smooth white skin 647 348-2899 - HolidaySpa:
Thursday at
𝓗𝓸𝓵𝓲𝓭𝓪𝔂 𝓢𝓹𝓪3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough 𝟰𝟯𝟳-𝟮𝟰𝟳-𝟭𝟭𝟵𝟵: ANGELA, LUCY & CINDY. Angela is versatile and responsive. LUCY is a beautiful and slim Asian lady with a happy disposition and great services. CINDY is a slim & incredibly sexy lady with a smile that will melt your heart, & an ass that will fire up your spirit. - SugarLoveSpa:
Thursday at
⎝𝗦𝗨𝗚𝗔𝗥 𝗟𝗢𝗩𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔⎠: LuNA, MIA, SARA & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ON ☎ 𝟰𝟯𝟳-𝟯𝟲𝟱-𝟮𝟲𝟴𝟴 ☎ LUNA is a slim, VERY PETITE and capable Vietnamese beauty, nice natural 34C Cups. Luna can do everything. MIA is a young & slim 𝙎𝙋𝙄𝙉𝙉𝙀𝙍, very PRETTY & PETITE Vietnamese beauty with perfect natural A Cups, 5’1” & 90 Lbs, very versatile. Come and enjoy. - ForeverWarden:
Thursday at
𝓕𝓞𝓡𝓔𝓥𝓔𝓡 𝓢𝓟𝓐2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough 𝟰𝟭𝟲-𝟴𝟬𝟬-𝟳𝟴𝟴𝟳: Cindy, Sophia & Tracy. Cindy is a slim beauty, 5’4”, natural C Cups. Her massage is nice, her services will drive you wild & her finish is a dream come true. Sophia is a sweet & pretty Chinese lady with natural B Cups and an awe-inspiring smooth rounded ass. Sophia can provide top notch services - Double_Tree:
Thursday, Sofia, tall and slim, experienced touch that will have you relaxed and feeling energized. Holly, tall with medium build . Pretty, has long brown hair. white skin, large hands for nice relaxation touch +. 416 293-5071
- Lilyspa1:
Lily Spa :Thursday Schedule Sana 23, , Punjabi girl , very pretty 36 DDD GFE Elena ( Latino ) Big Nature Boobs & SuSu ( Asian )Slim , Porn Service Duo , 6475318288
- luckywellness:
Lucky Wellness Center 4379721888 295 Eglinton Ave E,Unit 7,Mississauga We have two girls working today. Kiki and Suki, they are both young, pretty, cute and thin. But the back walking and massage are very good.
- Lulu_Villa_Spa:
Barbie Petite Korea Part time School girl Sami Gorgeous Model Type Vietnamese Girl Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl Natalie filipina mixed Petite girl647- 446-0886
- Lulu1980:
Phoenix Blossom Spa Table shower body scrub Sea Salt Bath
every day 3 girls 5124 Dundas St W Etobicoke416-817-3366 Nice girl Mia Natural Big Boobs 36 DD Pink Mini Nipples Hot body slide, super enjoyable very provocative service, professional super Luna deep tissue massage, back walking has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will b - DareDevil:
ARIA WELLNESSADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, RICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 (PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) TODAY'S Schedule! Loaded lineup with Young Beautiful Girls : Cute Cici, Magical Mia and Work out🏋 Babe Amy! BUY 10 HOURS (GET 11 HOURS) **TODAY'S PICK OF THE DAY IS MIA**
- EMSpa_schedule:
Tomorrow's sneak peek: On Thursday April 17, 2025, our attendants will be Sophie, Cici , Monica
, Ada and Vicky . Call us at (905) 479-6668 to book! - Lilyspa1:
Lily Spa : Wednesday Schedule Kajal 23, Punjabi girl GFE & bbbj Elena ( Latino ) Big Nature Boobs & SuSu ( Asian )Slim , Porn Service Duo , 6475318288
- Golden Flower Spa:
- BlueXado Therapy & Spa:
BlueXado – 1102 Centre St, Thornhill 416 357 9797 | 416 678 8668 CICI
| VICKY | CANDY 
(10–12AM) Book Now - Pink Flower Spa:
- Lilyspa1:
Lily Spa : Wednesday Schedule Kajal 23, Punjabi girl GFE & bbbj Elena ( Latino ) Big Nature Boobs & SuSu ( Asian )Slim , Porn Service Duo , 6475318288
- Lulu1980:
Phoenix Blossom Spa Table shower body scrub Sea Salt Bathevery day 3 girls 5124 Dundas St W Etobicoke416-817-3366 Nice girl Ivy Natural Big Boobs 36 DD Sexy body Hot body slide, super enjoyable very provocative service, professional super 。Luna deep tissue massage, back walking has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will
- EMSpa_schedule:
We're open! Today (Wednesday), our amazing attendants are Yoyo , Opal , Sandy , Cici and Carla
. Call us at (905) 479-6668 to book your favourite and head on over to 7665 Kennedy Road, Unit 4, Markham! - Red Rose Spa:
We have 11 hot brown girls today MONICA, PRIYA, PAOLA, SASHA, PREETI, ANGELINA, DIYA, ANGEL 2588 Birchmount 2 Invergordon 647-702-8800 Please visit for a great erotic massage
- SL East Spa:
♀WooHoo Wed Ultimate destination for Asian massages Two fab spots: Richmond Hill & Oakville Your passport to paradise with 9 enchanting girls fr China, HK, Japan & Korea — Julia, Cindy, Coco, Luna, Amber, JPN Yui, Tina, Akino & Lucy— ready to pamper you Ring us 647-695-6354 or text us 647-578-8169 160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, RichmondHill Where Eastern charm meets Western comfort - your bliss awaits
- wonderspa:
Wonder spa,(9421Jane st unit127)call416-5000-800best massage in vaughan,Wednesday RMT available,
sexy very young girl Joey natural c cup,very good looking nice body slide,really popular 
long hair Q Lucy good strong to relax oil massage, Relieve pain and remove stress,more experience beautiful slim body Cici friendly smile,strong and amazing body slide,give you comfortable warm time - Moneylee:
All season wellness center : New Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Zoe ,young girl pretty face nice figure Thai deep massage Helen,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament summer ,Young girl Big breasted saucy naughty Ella , Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Sherry ,address: #5-30 Rambler dr Brampton ,Ontario L6W 1E24376655510 ️️
- Moneylee:
Full season wellness center: Young girl Big-breasted big big butts Aris , Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Rose,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Julia ,Young beautiful face sexy body and good deep massage maggie,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Mary. 2560 Shepard ave Mississauga unit 1 4379857899 ️️
- AliceSpa:
WEDNESDAY at 𝗔𝗟𝗜𝗖𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔 416-298-0898, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough 3 very nice girls here today. Open 10am to 9pm: APPLE: from Hong Kong, very small body, 5' 100Lbs, petite with natural C Cups, small waist, pretty baby face, smooth skin, very clean. Shaved tight Pu**y, strong professional massage. Available FS bbbj cim cof rim. LUCKY (12pm-9pm): is Vietnamese, small body, busty D cup
- HollywoodSpa:
Wednesday at𝗛𝗢𝗟𝗟𝗬𝗪𝗢𝗢𝗗 𝗦𝗣𝗔, 4578 Yonge St, Unit 100, North York, ON: NICOLE & SISI. ☎𝟰𝟭𝟲-𝟮𝟮𝟮-𝟱𝟱𝟱𝟰☎ NICOLE is petite, slim and very pretty, with C Cups , long hair & a slim waist. She has nice massage and great services. SISI is a sweet slim beauty, 5’2”, with a beauty ass, excellent massage, and amazing services. Come and see why she is so popular. When you visit Hollywood
- ForeverWarden:
Wednesday at𝓕𝓞𝓡𝓔𝓥𝓔𝓡 𝓢𝓟𝓐2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough 𝟰𝟭𝟲-𝟴𝟬𝟬-𝟳𝟴𝟴𝟳: Bella, Cindy & Sasa. Bella is around 5’3” with a thin to medium build, C Cups, and a pleasing personality. She can offer dfk, bbbj and cfs as well as a good massage experience. Cindy is a slim beauty, 5’4”, natural C Cups. Her massage is nice, her services will drive you wild & her finish is a dream
- Jenny’s Spa:
JENNY’S SPA 5170 DUNDAS STREET WEST ETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4 ( 647-893-5196)Call or Text ( 437-888-3759)Call Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY GRAND OPENINGNEW GIRLS EVERYDAYEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNY’S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS TWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY REAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS Limited Time Special Promotion 30 Minutes Nude
- SugarLoveSpa:
Wednesday at ⎝𝗦𝗨𝗚𝗔𝗥 𝗟𝗢𝗩𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔⎠: ELLA, SUSAN & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ON ☎ 𝟰𝟯𝟳-𝟯𝟲𝟱-𝟮𝟲𝟴𝟴 ☎ ELLA is a lovely Thai sweetheart, 5’1” with C Cups, smooth skin and a very pleasing attitude. SUSAN is a small, slim & sexy brown girl, only 53 Kgs, with nice boobs and ass, very versatile services. TIFFANY is an amazing slim petite doll
- Annie Spa:
ANNIE SPA 7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLE SCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6 (647) 891-9688 (416) 291-8879 (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY NEW MANAGEMENTNEW GIRLS GORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAY’s ROSTER INCLUDES: FeifeiOur new Taiwanese beauty Feifei specializes in creating an intimate and deeply relaxing massage experience tailored to your desires. Her soft, skilled hands glide effortlessly, easing tension and awakening your senses
- bnwellness_wilson:
We have 4 young girls are working today, young sweet Mia 25’s with curve body open mind and young pretty Vicky 25’s with curve body good massage, young cute Ella good massage and flirty GFE Lina are providing deep tissue and sensual massage, pls call 4163985777 book appointment and walk in always welcome, back entrance and parking available, 350 Wilson Ave North York
Golden Flower – 8380 Kennedy Rd, Unionville
| KELLY 
| AMIRA 
| KELLY 
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